From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juri Linkov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:27:36 +0200 Organization: JURTA Message-ID: <871w775of3.fsf@jurta.org> References: <87myq4saw1.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <878x1ov227.fsf@jurta.org> <878x1os6mt.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <47B39231.8010108@gmail.com> <200802151711.m1FHB3Y3008798@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <200802171658.m1HGwQ4h011067@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <20080219085231.GA1032@muc.de> <200802190938.m1J9ccVg016565@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <20080219190127.GA1106@muc.de> <877ih0o9dx.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1203543120 26884 80.91.229.12 (20 Feb 2008 21:32:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:32:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: wilde@sha-bang.de, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 20 22:32:21 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JRwY2-00070u-0K for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:32:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JRwXX-0003ql-24 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:31:43 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JRwWd-0002dZ-WF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:30:48 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JRwWb-0002Zp-Pl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:30:47 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JRwWb-0002ZO-Hi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:30:45 -0500 Original-Received: from relay03.kiev.sovam.com ([62.64.120.201]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JRwWb-0000u9-2j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:30:45 -0500 Original-Received: from [83.170.232.243] (helo=smtp.svitonline.com) by relay03.kiev.sovam.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JRwWV-000CBF-47; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:30:41 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:52:32 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Scanner-Signature: a8c813420754d5015e2a5a3aeed75c84 X-DrWeb-checked: yes X-SpamTest-Envelope-From: juri@jurta.org X-SpamTest-Group-ID: 00000000 X-SpamTest-Header: Not Detected X-SpamTest-Info: Profiles 2271 [Feb 20 2008] X-SpamTest-Info: helo_type=3 X-SpamTest-Method: none X-SpamTest-Rate: 0 X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Status-Extended: not_detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 3.0.0 [0278], KAS30/Release X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: FreeBSD 6.x (1) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:89738 Archived-At: > Whenever I use "emacs -Q" or some similar "vanilla Emacs", the first > thing that I'm urged to do is M-x transient-mark-mode (and it was > already Nœ1 back when fotn-lock-mode wasn't the default). On environments where I need to start Emacs without .emacs, enabling transient-mark-mode is the second thing I do. The first thing is enabling x-select-enable-clipboard which is much worse because it requires typing M-: (setq x-select-enable-clipboard t) whereas M-x transient-mark-mode is easier to type and even without it C-SPC C-SPC is a real saver. > Of course, I'm sure I'd be able to learn to live without it. It seems > like an option affect people *very* strongly, so those who want it > *really* want it, and those who don't *really* don't. As I understand one of the goals of enabling transient-mark-mode was to make newbies more comfortable with Emacs, yet we achieve nothing. When newbies run Emacs for the first time, they expect the same behavior as in other their familiar programs. For selecting the region of text most modern programs provide two ways: with the mouse (already enabled by default in Emacs), and by using arrow keys while holding the SHIFT key. The latter is still disabled by default. So I think in addition to (or instead of) enabling transient-mark-mode, we should enable a more close equivalent of selecting the region in most programs, that is either pc-selection-mode or cua-selection-mode. The question of using C-SPC to activate the region actually is unrelated here because there are no equivalents to C-SPC in other programs, so this is a separate question. I see no objections against enabling SHIFT keys for region selection by default (contrary to enabling transient-mark-mode :), except for implementation details that can be fixed, of course. -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/