From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eric Abrahamsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Message Mode and bidi Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 19:16:08 -0800 Message-ID: <871q8wc64n.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> References: <87v86ldzpw.fsf@aura.christopherculver.com> <867cj1qg4m.fsf@gnu.org> <8734to16tw.fsf@aura.christopherculver.com> <86bk8cw20e.fsf@p200300d627023a0ad1f3c3db8ccb4c50.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> <87frxoyuq4.fsf@aura.christopherculver.com> <87ttm4klnl.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <86y1bfolgf.fsf@gnu.org> <87h6i3lnp8.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <86o7cbnqxb.fsf@gnu.org> <87edcwcyw1.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <86sf1csdsh.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15777"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 29 04:17:30 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rfWvK-0003rO-F2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 04:17:30 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rfWuF-0007fk-Sv; Wed, 28 Feb 2024 22:16:23 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rfWuD-0007f1-DF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2024 22:16:21 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.ericabrahamsen.net ([52.70.2.18]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rfWuB-0003ED-QF; Wed, 28 Feb 2024 22:16:21 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost (71-212-21-65.tukw.qwest.net [71.212.21.65]) (Authenticated sender: eric@ericabrahamsen.net) by mail.ericabrahamsen.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 77EC0FA0BA; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 03:16:10 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericabrahamsen.net; s=mail; t=1709176570; bh=xB445C+6PYkXNz/Sur+YO5z0NRvjALvpmZAigQgqUIs=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=to9S3yT9QnWgGDQKXpf+82YXZ/0cXuDUeKv0g4tCORhsGxuhMFe040TPj044i/GOr va3n2gJ+vRILpvzMj8isO7AWDgafwlkAChKfwRJfICIEdg1+kp9MxMJeQAnYqyVWN0 sAJLgiV066X9D/bi6yuztYI27mfghBFnlXwCbILQ= In-Reply-To: <86sf1csdsh.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 28 Feb 2024 19:23:58 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=52.70.2.18; envelope-from=eric@ericabrahamsen.net; helo=mail.ericabrahamsen.net X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316632 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Eric Abrahamsen >> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 08:54:54 -0800 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> > But beware: doing this in Emacs will cause effects that are unpleasant >> > to readers of bidirectional text, because you could have "chess-like" >> > text display, like this: >> > >> > asasasasasasasasasasasasassa >> > ASASASASASASASASASASASASA >> > xcxcxcxcxcxcxcxcxcxcxcxcxc >> > JKJNJKKKNKNKNKNKNK >> > >> > etc. Here upper-case letters stand for RTL (like Arabic or Farsi) >> > text and lower-case letters stand for LTR (like Latin or Cyrillic) >> > text. >> >> This is the effect I was imagining in the header section of the message >> buffer, and why I thought we should probably skip trying to handle this. >> message-mode headers can be "continuation headers", as well, effectively >> line-wrapped, which would make it even harder. > > Yes. But the same can happen in the body of the message, and will IMO > be even more annoying, because people do care about the body. > >> Thanks for the background! I guess I was hoping that we could at least >> support OP's original request, which is making the first paragraph of >> the message body independent of the mail header separator as regards >> BIDI display. I experimented with putting the value of >> `mail-header-separator' into `bidi-paragraph-start|separate-re', but >> couldn't get it to display that first paragraph starting on the right. >> Do you think this is feasible, and worth the effort? > > No, I don't think it's worth the effort, even if you succeed. The > price of leaving an empty line after the headers is so small that it > isn't worth the hassle to try to avoid it. Once the user does that a > few times, the technique will be burned into his/her muscle memory (I > know because I went through that process myself, long ago). Okay, fair enough! Thanks again.