From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:32:26 +1000 Message-ID: <86y1vg3a31.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87ilmlluxq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilmlluxq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h725olz1.fsf@gnus.org> <87zgfxn6lt.fsf@gnus.org> <87tu65k9ec.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r119lnsd.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtbxlnf1.fsf@gnus.org> <87czctk890.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a67xlm9v.fsf@gnus.org> <87k070g6l0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8635do4u9b.fsf@gmail.com> <877d30g1az.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14894"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.8.9; emacs 29.0.50 Cc: Lynn Winebarger , Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 22 11:43:42 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ3yA-0003kq-Iy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 11:43:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55366 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ3y9-0001i1-Gx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 05:43:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57882) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ3fH-0004LQ-Oj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 05:24:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]:51132) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ3fF-0001Hk-NC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 05:24:11 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id g18so10379503pju.0 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 02:24:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:date:subject:cc:to:from :user-agent:references:from:to:cc; bh=80H3dSWRNLStQJKVOi17MOvWP4i3AqxGCrxi0cWyA/E=; b=bjQ40TNPWHnuw6zQJUtSwJpP3nfPjwiug9XS2feQ26vmIrdVm/Rl30u7DpF3FQoyc6 opDaI7S6btkISprP4p7rn9H9VbPBzc+jysGAttIB1ciisYOhjzmi2ISDWGv3OhVcwuJ6 fIvQ7OhXSZ9SbIC6htg/GGDDl6jecHqQN7T0xWa3oKqMSvgYQIlw0bCZwNi3emyP3l5a GPcygzmaTlyhg0Fz5IWVYp4RIk+mXyYo4GBaa87zVgSK04JRNlrJkxT4o2eH8HqWZjVQ CLhtigtLbxGJAR/7QIOj/chtdwAZoQzRLhLk6NH4XCJA9RLrhn0+V4hQcpFvG1YSrTIN GCwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:date:subject:cc:to:from :user-agent:references:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=80H3dSWRNLStQJKVOi17MOvWP4i3AqxGCrxi0cWyA/E=; b=DzXgU+vFckCBLVbIHUGGdYhZB2qVuQf89a3z4QjkbicNGXrQgBI9yE0fE2/WStomob KvqwRva3Mi5PM+tv1J14Kx2KZ8jsVeuqFAJqJs+dxQkPeKl2FX9camo4RtOqW3Ty+yXe xTgHQ0euwaCgBAl4LYsj0pCXKzMcnlnn5m+UJi+cUgoMS6NuJPMCzCRh253U6b0UMpJ2 X5tAeQeOWOuSipzSEEXUjt8bCymV5A8IDyn+KOv24D299GXsX1swfr40wuJPhhSCjx8g 5w4qIq6yWXO1V5ynxX19MCZbpQ0IlOmB2XEZyWVGoYFjG6BDi2iaxcyQgo7iu7nSi3PY 0lRg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo0OQYBQnhxnpy4hCQWUBLbRSUuWfL0FU5nSz/PLRpTl+5E9mt5O sYTAXlpDcAq4PF6dCCoVHUEhcsd3vitjOQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR7NGpfiSOc3yJPFjSQEmAQfRfcDgQJqIxdiavlDrUXK+mQ2yLIk8md26zNd500Dq+8pzHYZag== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:240e:b0:170:d82a:25c7 with SMTP id e14-20020a170903240e00b00170d82a25c7mr19079231plo.126.1661160246852; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 02:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from dingbat (2001-44b8-31f2-bb00-842a-7361-87c7-2662.static.ipv6.internode.on.net. [2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:842a:7361:87c7:2662]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a26-20020aa795ba000000b0052dc3796cbfsm8187537pfk.75.2022.08.22.02.24.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 22 Aug 2022 02:24:06 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <877d30g1az.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1032.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293782 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Tim Cross writes: > >> Like others in this thread, I don't use the menu-bar, toolbar, >> scroll-bars etc, so toolkit seems somewhat irrelevant (I have to do an >> M-x version to see which one I'm using!). I build using lucid as that >> seemed like a better choice than gtk and I use xfce rather than gnome as >> my desktop environment (and sometimes stumpwm). > > [...] > >> I suspect a part of the decision regarding which toolkit to build emacs >> with for various distros probably relates to minimising the number of >> toolkits to install. As Gnome seems to be the current 'default', gtk is >> already installed, so will likely be a preferred choice unless some >> other compelling reason is given. > > The problem here is not a stylistic issue. I want to disable the GTK > build by default because it leads to serious problems for users, up to > and including crashes. You missed my point. I'm not saying the change is because of a stylistic issue - I'm saying the change is likely to create a stylistic issue. This will in turn cause more resistance to the change and possibly increase motivation to do whatever is necessary to re-enable gtk build. > >> With Fedora now shipping with Wayland as default and the recent >> announcement regarding nvidia driver licensing and support for nvidia >> under wayland, I suspectg we will see a significant growth in >> distributions defaulting to wayland and wanting to reduce/remove >> dependency on X. > > The regular GTK build of Emacs will not run on GNOME Wayland either. > People who want to use Wayland should use the different PGTK build instead. > Yes, I know that and that is a problem for distributions where they want to minimise the distro size and number of packages which need to be maintained. As it stands now, most distributions include 3 packages - emacs-gtk, emacs-lucid and emacs-nox. As they move to support wayland, they will either have to include emacs-pgtk or continue with the wayland-x interface. The risk is, given they need GTK for both emacs-gtk and emacs-pgtk, they will drop the emacs-lucid package rather than the emacs-gtk package (unless we help educate them on why that would be a bad choice). To educate effectively, it helps to understand their situation and not just address the technical issues seen from a pure emacs development position. >> One factor which will likely come into play if we changed the default >> toolkit is theming. I've noticed that in both the most recent releases >> of Ubuntu and Fedora, a lot of reviews and comments centred around >> improved consistency in themes (especially consistency when switching >> between light/dark themes). With a lucid build, I expect you will need >> to setup X resources to match your theme. With the GTK build, it looks >> like it inherits from whatever you set your default theme to (for menus >> etc). > > Emacs's own interface doesn't respect any toolkit theme. OK, so how does my Emacs default theme change between dark and light theme when I change the theme of my desktop environment? This never use to work and I assumed it was because emacs didn't respect the DE theme. I use to manage it via X resources. However, I noticed on recent installs under both Ubuntu and Fedora that changing between light and dark themes also resulted in changes to (for example) the menus and menu-bar from a light background with dark text to a dark background with light text. My assumption was that this was due to the GTK theme being respected? > >> Personally, I tend to define my theme and just leave it. I do use a dark >> theme and after many years, I have a good default Xresources, so not a >> big issue for me (with the exception of some qt based apps). However, >> for a generation brought up using Gnome, the whole xrdb stuff is likely >> to be challenging/frustrating. I assume similar issues will exist for >> the no toolket default. > > The no toolkit build can be customized entirely with Lisp. > Which is fine for those who know lisp. However, this isn't what people expect these days. THis was my point - lots of the comments and reviews for recent distributions of Ubuntu and Fedora have referenced greatly improved theme/style consistencies. From my own limited experience, this appears to extend to Emacs as well (to a limited extent, not the whole UI, just menus, popup dialogue boxes etc. >> I don't think this is sufficient reason not to change the default to >> (lets say) lucid - just mention it as I suspect it will cause some >> disruption/frustration. There also seems to be a lot of bad >> information about using/setting Xresources out there, which might add >> to the confusion. > > Are you sure what you understand "this" is? I'm going to say this > again: defaulting to the GTK build because it "looks better" or is "more > consistent" is quite simply trading crashes for looks. Ignoring the level of motivation visual appeal/style has to peoples decisions is likely to be somewhat naive. There are plenty of examples of superior technology/solutions losing to inferior ones because of non-technical reasons. I also wonder about how frequent these crashes and technical issues are. I switched over from gtk to lucid a little while ago. However, prior to switching, I experienced absolutely no issues and I cannot recall the last time Emacs crashed for me. I'm running latest emacs devel (29.0.50) on Fedora 36 (previously on Ubutnu 22.04). I'm a heavy Emacs users, running it every day all day and using it for nearly everything. I switched to lucid because the technical arguments made sense to me. However, I did not experience any of the technical issues you reference. If my experience is more common, then your purely technical argument is going to have difficulty gaining traction.