From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Renaming eglot -- or at least add an alias? Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2022 22:27:50 +1100 Message-ID: <86y1tvvgzo.fsf@gmail.com> References: <83pmfdduix.fsf@gnu.org> <86sfk7hse3.fsf@gmail.com> <8735c6tq6t.fsf@posteo.net> <87edvoul4u.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30043"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.9.0; emacs 29.0.50 Cc: Richard Stallman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 04 16:49:48 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ofjEy-0007co-Lg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2022 16:49:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41860 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ofjEx-0006Kh-2D for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2022 10:49:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40004) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ofiGX-0004eh-W2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2022 09:47:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]:42998) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ofiFx-0003K6-DN; Tue, 04 Oct 2022 09:46:46 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id e129so12741979pgc.9; Tue, 04 Oct 2022 06:46:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:date:subject:cc:to:from :user-agent:references:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=c6TTAlBFQK70p5zzuviVcwcTGEcdkhrHrBE5kwzkg8U=; b=g9csSwjN4hcxc5+xcmwYXxYkYzSNzyZBzkLT0vSMpuGe16DSiEQNDct37yc40AUpF+ 6CCJShSJWoN2Etk3KEfKpuNYM19yRB4Q0YpwbSqTdClN2lRVzu+Rg2k/oyLAaA8bPsIC /a7nbUuuFg4XKAS0ggM+P1Z/rMOhPnwmxZ6mp58fvsuWVNHLjrpUn6FQjjT7jydgNSpo Qr3g2PzTgC+XHtZSY923d6jS7lFqViZVHHmr4Jef/ASJaA60BLfNDrZjO+mKvHjOuNun cKEWc33C38XWJwc450vUfN9cBat1vVX1oFIx8EtFMs0Cp+v305N23k6n/3diLI8+svVa Ik8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:date:subject:cc:to:from :user-agent:references:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=c6TTAlBFQK70p5zzuviVcwcTGEcdkhrHrBE5kwzkg8U=; b=oYG6ITeOq6odEZS9khiuOHGZwQg4eY2GfaLO5/Hc/maU8rPW0JRwWOT2EWkkB3zlDb cIi8TUARqT9WnNmtjtBAcMuM3nFpUzwIj6nl6jE/BIhQ0CVjU2STBh8PyqvQwtcc6j0a uYqVx8SoQXSnIC/UgsgvcJB3TtBJ/JHPE+cyJQoyiaOwyCE1uC91a087adN0D0lk72cQ tDJwtU7eWxMzT0RMPHijrwPkJuQEliykz5YE5SONwmrZOlOS5WT5yw+jxoRb9mJZSA/N HVCfjk7KC5D9SRaf2t/RJELERuQcCmIGgXFVJble1dyiOIhfm0dt1Umj1Ptvbtec2RuT t/Wg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0DwAVeLHt70EvcDJrrrgsyD/6Qw/aT1cUcCI4T7becDEtkNNHI SKGARroYC+ePeNDkhb+mvLqVu6XVfos= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4KA57jR0ORUU5esEvKcXQ1xB/HcuvSqKNsvYBiuagI7fRrzEiN4BRtvOnCP6jncJJbFrAQqQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:120b:0:b0:43c:771b:4c52 with SMTP id h11-20020a63120b000000b0043c771b4c52mr23777600pgl.370.1664891202426; Tue, 04 Oct 2022 06:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from dingbat (124-169-22-230.dyn.iinet.net.au. [124.169.22.230]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z35-20020a631923000000b0044ba7b39c2asm5068546pgl.60.2022.10.04.06.46.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 04 Oct 2022 06:46:41 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <87edvoul4u.fsf@posteo.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::534; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x534.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:296887 Archived-At: Philip Kaludercic writes: > Richard Stallman writes: > >> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >> >> > >> Can anyone suggest a way to describe the job that Eglot does, NOT >> > >> using technical jargon, or implementation details such as "LSP"? >> >> > Some ideas of the top of my head: >> >> > - ide-mode >> > - integrated-development-mode >> > - {smart,intelligent,clever}-mode >> > - programming-mode >> > - syntax-mode >> >> You've tried to resent descriptions which are short enough that they >> might serve as command names. Unfortunately, that shortness makes >> them less than helpful for explaining the job that Eglot does. > > That is kind of the issue, isn't it? Eglot (or LSP in general) doesn't > add any new features, it just improves the accuracy of what already is > built-in. > I think your correct that eglot doesn't bring any new features. What we are really talking about here is a new architecture where, in an ideal world, each language would provide its own language server that all editors would leverage off via a client like elgot. There would be no need for individual editors to re-invent functionality such as linting, code snippets or editor specific language parsing etc. As such, it offers the potential for simpler and more efficient editors that have to worry less about keeping up with the evolution of a specific language. However, it may not be accurate to argue that eglot (and LSP generally) provides improvement or more accurate functionality. There are cases where the LSP based solution may not be as good as a very sophisticated mode for a specific language. For example, while I find an LSP based solution really good when I'm working on Javascript, I still find cider mode better when working with Clojure. LIkewise, not all LSP servers are equal. Some are better and/or more sophisticated than others. This new architecture is not just beneficial for editor developers/maintainers. Users benefit because of a simpler configuration experience. Prior to LSP and an Emacs lsp client, I had to configure a number of different emacs packages in order to get a useful Javascript development environment. Now, all I have to do is install one of the JS LSP servers and eglot and the job is done. Trying to find a new name which reflects what eglot does is problematic because what it does is the same as what many other packages do. What is different is the way (architecture) it sues to achieve this. However, that doesn't really help either - if we use a name which is somehow derived from eglot's role as an lsp client, we cause confusion because there is more than one lsp client and when people try to communicate around this, things get confused between the package called lsp client and the different 'things' which are lsp clients. Likewise, when searching for help or past messages/articles, you get too much 'noise' because the name your using is too similar to other uses or functionality. The whole idea of names which reflect the role or purpose of a package is flawed. It results in generic names which make searching for information specific to that package much harder. In many cases, such generic names tend to provide little real value anyway. On the other hand, if you have a unique name which doesn't tell you anything about what a package does, what are you likely to do - look at it more closely and likely read the package description. Not only can you provide a unique distinct name which makes communication and searching easier, you may actually peak interest more than a likely limited descriptive name which makes something seem irrelevant or more limiting than it needs to be.