From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Reconsider defaults for use-package-vc-prefer-newest Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2024 21:24:34 +0300 Message-ID: <86y13sdbbx.fsf@gnu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14404"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?Martin_Edstr=C3=B6m?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 15 20:25:44 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sptwO-0003Z2-9Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 20:25:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sptvY-0003A5-Rn; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 14:24:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sptvV-00039Z-0r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 14:24:50 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sptvT-0003xX-E9; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 14:24:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=Z5hjvmtJBDboZy4jSuI/njxD8/RUJywvjp1ZNnAKkvQ=; b=klVFFkw24aQDEaqMdASu Qt8VKGgZ/3VRAhOcaOZU/qy8NJshp+9/yWHQ1yzw6xrnzDsZfv7/bqITx+sRVUyX+1uxasZCnnfFv dQVaXWvJpwzzRj5dK3VHdN4RVg+b862QcRB/9B/fhLx06DbzQfMqoP7zSmCB4Nj0wEvINU8cxEwGb fSrDjC4fZLp1jNCg1TjWk0WWUFB5uo9p6TZ+LJPO5mYbtIK6R3H4GXDkLSz6cHW5xrzcn4cfXC0lP toudepzHz1YR8bk8btwIkS63ecuU90Faebvrjj14W99Q8Pn7j1X5pZ5K3CXhOGnIhV1FtTIAnOcmm UwPO3s0Pc5SJmg==; In-Reply-To: (meedstrom@runbox.eu) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323640 Archived-At: > From: "Martin Edström" > CC: "emacs-devel" > Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2024 19:38:55 +0200 (CEST) > > Now that we're on Emacs 30.0.91, I feel the need to call this out as a fairly release-critical bug. Perhaps I should have emailed bug-gnu-emacs, but now that'd split the discussion over two places, so I'll keep it here. > > If this is the kind of setting we can flip in a patch release, then there's no rush. Maybe someone can weigh in about that. > > Otherwise it would remain as a source of instability for many years, and conscientious devs would have to insert a check for Emacs 30 that reminds the user that the package may be terribly outdated. > > At least one other developer agrees the current setting is "fragile" (https://github.com/melpa/melpa/pull/9133#issuecomment-2351653325). I've read this thread, and I must confess that I'm not convinced. Besides being waaay too late for such changes in Emacs 30, I also don't think we have enough experience at this time to make such decisions. Both package-vc and use-package are relatively very new in Emacs, and we have yet to collect enough user experience and understanding of what are the expectations and how they should work together. Moreover, use-package-vc-prefer-newest is a new option in Emacs 30, and we rarely make new optional behaviors take effect by default as soon as they are introduced, to avoid behavior changes which will surprise and perhaps annoy. We made it an option to make it easily adaptable to user preferences and needs. Some of the rationale (like outdated Package-Version) also sounds like it isn't our problem to solve. It should be easy for the respective package developers to get their act together in this matter. It is also TRT for them. When a user uses use-package, he/she doesn't necessarily want the latest commit, so the change isn't as obvious as you make it sound, IMO. Bottom line: I think no catastrophe happens if Emacs 30 is released with the current default value of use-package-vc-prefer-newest. It's a user option, so customizing it is easy for people who want the latest commit. Even if we are making a mistake (for reasons we will learn later), first time you do something there are always some rough edges, so we can be excused for not realizing something due to lack of experience. Thanks.