From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Cesar Crusius Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [ELPA] New Package: greek-polytonic.el Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:37:23 -0700 Message-ID: <86sh4le0to.fsf@gmail.com> References: <83fu0mawzb.fsf@gnu.org> <86wotxzqsa.fsf@macmini.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <83o9f9acsf.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1531618544 28107 195.159.176.226 (15 Jul 2018 01:35:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 01:35:44 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.2 (gnu/linux) Cc: Cesar Crusius , jhanschoo@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 15 03:35:39 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1feVwk-00078T-Sv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2018 03:35:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43975 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1feVyq-0001lf-6p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:37:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43454) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1feVyg-0001lZ-8b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:37:35 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1feVyd-000701-3f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:37:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x242.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::242]:39205) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1feVyc-0006zR-QO; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:37:31 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-x242.google.com with SMTP id s21-v6so24605069pfm.6; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:37:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=FEOBgUSf/EZzDntcmeD9AaB/+Qoy6MM5ONOR3YXG6OU=; b=PI0yE+QfnlHKx1hK7sHak2usFrAUZ0kuauvOS7LfW4nx2R6zCWFebdMYEzjfc477S7 SXE+1SPb62SqBF6uTl/oJQUojLudM9idsK0U3TVw/zH0P84RlXdosPfZw3AlotQ43ehc RrLyFVH0qGHJP8jljfKGhFpPTgATUSrTIK86Cd3l1azC3BTeQCHbaOaG95N+qbNw2IL5 eOv/rFmIF2wBHyuBoVkRSHYBB9Fhjm12IDPCiIYRTz5ghiob3sGdoGTYCW3crIKI9rbe EFYBNDXdT7THvG7O6XPSi9mn5N96n2/eNFHgTevOJYN+8XFeFac2rbPHdKnuw0Rlk4hB CShQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=FEOBgUSf/EZzDntcmeD9AaB/+Qoy6MM5ONOR3YXG6OU=; b=PZt6183bIBMViLWsfUZTxJmq49MaA427VBRAGS7DYb4qEEXnaB6dCa0WmZVwu6Z5Sh OI1DffQx1UuXLwxl6f9Sz7pCJmBeiOnx0ttDcMXklHVAyvaU6ufdzKxuJYrrTGd73MVa NM9WEN/DfB3UqCLM05qdIw0L33BKSfoV0pqBM4QkosUpxk46DvopOn81B6X8CIryjKWE gkMTfrcB4bsbSh5Ij0fEcM0CnT+WPql9z4ILbeAMh3NLt7M1qMuFLzTNFDBPtVxKNL/X 2im1j2dDHsCWwRsReOxyz+rpEo10PWCdV001/xpwgF2dE9bf+aHw6pVYH5m9uWlnRpTf uEoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFvNiTQHwvQ9o96eBcnAIJ86doMvU2Lo5/SR7jARE8KuDFUWbqq oWnBMs5pl+Z8Si+dGBkTfqOFB5mu X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdvpAC1aqGfuorbY1Y4W/XcEbUDOjFIDa7X/WZHQEtEq1824svxPUA6VMpwFBeWj8m6TpOY+w== X-Received: by 2002:a65:6243:: with SMTP id q3-v6mr10723971pgv.273.1531618649429; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from macmini (c-24-4-33-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.4.33.27]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 203-v6sm52020891pgb.14.2018.07.14.18.37.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:37:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83o9f9acsf.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:32:32 +0300") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::242 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:227418 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Cesar Crusius Cc: Johannes Choo=20 >> , emacs-devel@gnu.org Date: Sat, 14 Jul=20 >> 2018 10:11:01 -0700=20=20 >> > Is this a good idea? It seems to go against the intent of=20 >> > whoever is typing the text: they do want the decomposed=20 >> > characters to appear in the text. Emacs will automatically=20 >> > (by default) compose them on display (and if it doesn't,=20 >> > that's a bug that should be reported and fixed), per Unicode=20 >> > requirements, and if the font supports the precomposed glyph,=20 >> > you will actually see that glyph on display. Replacing=20 >> > characters with their NFC equivalents should IMO be a=20 >> > separate feature, not something an input method does. Am I=20 >> > missing something?=20 >> I'm not sure what you mean by "want the decomposed characters=20 >> to appear in the text," but when I am writing polytonic Greek=20 >> and type the sequence above, all I want is to see an=20 >> alpha+macron+acute in front of me.=20 >=20 > On display or in the buffer? If on display, then Emacs should=20 > already do that, provided that the font you are using supports=20 > the composed characters. That's because by default we have the=20 > auto-composition-mode turned on.=20 >=20 > I was talking about what's in the buffer. I think that if the=20 > user types a sequence of characters, Emacs should generally put=20 > those characters unaltered in the buffer. If the user wants a=20 > precomposed character, she could always type that character's=20 > codepoint using "C-x 8 RET", no?=20 >=20 > But maybe I don't know enough about the expectations of users=20 > who would use greek-polytonic input method, maybe in some use=20 > cases such automatic composition in the buffer is expected? Maybe we're talking about different things... Input methods do automatic composition all the time. That's what=20 they are expected to do. I do it every day when writing Portuguese=20 text. Consider "=C3=A1": I just wrote it by switching input methods and=20 typing "-". What ends up in the buffer and on the=20 display is one single character. If my buffer had instead=20 "+" I would consider that a bug. Unicode=20 supports the combination, I want the combination there. This means that the input method's semantics is to translate a=20 sequence of keys into the most natural underlying=20 representation. For "a acute," it is "=C3=A1", not "a+combining acute",=20 and nobody blinks an eye. For polytonic Greek, however, the problem is that Unicode does not=20 have pre-composed characters to represent all the=20 possibilities. Combining characters will be needed, but the input=20 method can -- and I argue /should/ -- combine what they=20 can. Example: * Typing "a + macron" should give U+1FB1, "Greek small letter=20 alpha with=20 macron," /one/ character, just as "=C3=A1" above. Similarly, I would=20 consider "+" a bug. * Typing "a + macron + acute" should give the above plus a U+0301=20 "combining=20 acute", because it is the best it can do -- and it is what fonts=20 like Skolar expect. "C-x 8 RET" is not a solution if you are typing in a language that=20 requires it once or more every word. (Again, that becomes the job=20 of the input method.) By the way, I'm all for greek.el supporting polytonic Greek=20 natively and naturally. I don't remember what the problems were,=20 but I gave up on it quickly when trying polytonic because it=20 didn't work. Cheers, =2D-=20 Cesar Crusius --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEEsu/ErKn7yEV7E0FU/X9qSDfQj2EFAltKpVQACgkQ/X9qSDfQ j2EZOgv/diW/ZpcQt5WRtrZpf2eUKIIsztFclYLNO24WoHIAiRcNXT9oC6W24S16 612Ig0cNWao0Y7GlSXtw0zSeXpQsnvtfi0Z9ti6NogcSc/Pz5LA0Ebjnozx4rAKP dPUQ3Sb4srCVrD6y7R/EU0dRa0m7gRBVy/Mpl8kUG8PtQA5zn+z+/Bqc+l8fAFYE Ljrwprs/2J+EU5aKfZqmxzjmdY7MvbqhEuAzQWru/cWSDdp+ZOiu+5sEsUYIHJte TMFTvYMvS4G3YT4vpjGKwdeHvALNC/QPY1MBRQwIeKRQvQNYqhEmCSIGBhiOL/4/ COyHzYojVy2EwKvKbi5Kicn9U/i2Fm4Wn0NZApWrkkRGKioCElph8CFbvJP3SNLC RhA+zrCpvIUv7FmpQquhG6thZ17vyIymZxUghKLA+Qr9fqYaomZTBJIIPXbLahZF FcjT5YDb7c+uZs0U3RAbjVRVqO1ROcjUVY+4ugdOPFZwpKlhcVNJ5gfjAvtbPrau 7tJHGmay =crKP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--