MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

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Hi,

I find auto-completion suggestions when writing text quite intrusive and
distracting. It has taken me some Emacs Lisp reading to find out how to
turn it off. Attached is a micro-patch to add a small hint to turn it off.
A reminder: there are people who need to be not disturbed with external
stimuli when working (for example attention deficits, etc.)

Thx, /PA

---cut here---
diff --git a/doc/lispref/modes.texi b/doc/lispref/modes.texi
index b034fecd77b..8a61117142d 100644
--- a/doc/lispref/modes.texi
+++ b/doc/lispref/modes.texi
@@ -1056,7 +1056,8 @@ Basic Major Modes
 @samp{"} and @samp{\} characters as having punctuation syntax
 (@pxref{Syntax Class Table}), and arranges for
 @code{completion-at-point} to complete words based on the spelling
-dictionary (@pxref{Completion in Buffers}).
+dictionary (@pxref{Completion in Buffers}), unless variable
+@code{text-mode-ispell-word-completion} is set to @code{nil}.

 An example of a major mode derived from Text mode is HTML mode.
 @xref{HTML Mode,,SGML and HTML Modes, emacs, The GNU Emacs Manual}.
---cut here---
-- 
Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Georg Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1751 bytes --]

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:29:30 +0200
> 
> I find auto-completion suggestions when writing text quite intrusive and distracting. It has taken me some
> Emacs Lisp reading to find out how to turn it off. Attached is a micro-patch to add a small hint to turn it off. A
> reminder: there are people who need to be not disturbed with external stimuli when working (for example
> attention deficits, etc.)
> 
> Thx, /PA
> 
> ---cut here---
> diff --git a/doc/lispref/modes.texi b/doc/lispref/modes.texi
> index b034fecd77b..8a61117142d 100644
> --- a/doc/lispref/modes.texi
> +++ b/doc/lispref/modes.texi
> @@ -1056,7 +1056,8 @@ Basic Major Modes
>  @samp{"} and @samp{\} characters as having punctuation syntax
>  (@pxref{Syntax Class Table}), and arranges for
>  @code{completion-at-point} to complete words based on the spelling
> -dictionary (@pxref{Completion in Buffers}).
> +dictionary (@pxref{Completion in Buffers}), unless variable
> +@code{text-mode-ispell-word-completion} is set to @code{nil}.

Thanks, but this is not the right place for documenting the option if
we want to make it more discoverable.  User options are supposed to be
documented in the Emacs user manual, not in the Lisp Reference manual,
and users are unlikely to look in the latter when they look for
user-level information.

So I think this should be added to the node "Text Mode" of the user
manual instead.  Bonus points for mentioning this feature in the doc
string of text-mode as well.

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

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Hi,

so you mean something like the attached patch?

Best, /PA

On Thu, 4 Apr 2024 at 20:48, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> > Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 19:29:30 +0200
> >
> > I find auto-completion suggestions when writing text quite intrusive and
> distracting. It has taken me some
> > Emacs Lisp reading to find out how to turn it off. Attached is a
> micro-patch to add a small hint to turn it off. A
> > reminder: there are people who need to be not disturbed with external
> stimuli when working (for example
> > attention deficits, etc.)
> >
> > Thx, /PA
> >
> > ---cut here---
> > diff --git a/doc/lispref/modes.texi b/doc/lispref/modes.texi
> > index b034fecd77b..8a61117142d 100644
> > --- a/doc/lispref/modes.texi
> > +++ b/doc/lispref/modes.texi
> > @@ -1056,7 +1056,8 @@ Basic Major Modes
> >  @samp{"} and @samp{\} characters as having punctuation syntax
> >  (@pxref{Syntax Class Table}), and arranges for
> >  @code{completion-at-point} to complete words based on the spelling
> > -dictionary (@pxref{Completion in Buffers}).
> > +dictionary (@pxref{Completion in Buffers}), unless variable
> > +@code{text-mode-ispell-word-completion} is set to @code{nil}.
>
> Thanks, but this is not the right place for documenting the option if
> we want to make it more discoverable.  User options are supposed to be
> documented in the Emacs user manual, not in the Lisp Reference manual,
> and users are unlikely to look in the latter when they look for
> user-level information.
>
> So I think this should be added to the node "Text Mode" of the user
> manual instead.  Bonus points for mentioning this feature in the doc
> string of text-mode as well.
>


-- 
Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Georg Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

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diff --git a/doc/emacs/text.texi b/doc/emacs/text.texi
index cb347d59948..f039c42d46c 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/text.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/text.texi
@@ -954,6 +954,11 @@ Text Mode
   Entering Text mode runs the mode hook @code{text-mode-hook}
 (@pxref{Major Modes}).
 
+@vindex text-mode-ispell-word-completion
+  Entering Text mode also activates auto-complete hints. If you find
+that this is disturbing for you, set this variable to @code{nil} in
+your Emacs initialization code.
+
   The following sections describe several major modes that are
 @dfn{derived} from Text mode.  These derivatives share most of the
 features of Text mode described above.  In particular, derivatives of
diff --git a/lisp/textmodes/text-mode.el b/lisp/textmodes/text-mode.el
index e8e1f4898ce..a39ee5f8dba 100644
--- a/lisp/textmodes/text-mode.el
+++ b/lisp/textmodes/text-mode.el
@@ -145,7 +145,10 @@ text-mode
 You can thus get the full benefit of adaptive filling
  (see the variable `adaptive-fill-mode').
 \\{text-mode-map}
-Turning on Text mode runs the normal hook `text-mode-hook'."
+Turning on Text mode runs the normal hook `text-mode-hook'.
+By default, `text-mode-hook' will enable completion at point with
+candidates supplied by `ispell'. You can turn this off by
+setting `text-mode-ispell-word-completion' to `nil'."
   (setq-local text-mode-variant t)
   (setq-local require-final-newline mode-require-final-newline)
 

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 12:25:18 +0200
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> so you mean something like the attached patch?

Almost, see below.

> diff --git a/doc/emacs/text.texi b/doc/emacs/text.texi
> index cb347d59948..f039c42d46c 100644
> --- a/doc/emacs/text.texi
> +++ b/doc/emacs/text.texi
> @@ -954,6 +954,11 @@ Text Mode
>    Entering Text mode runs the mode hook @code{text-mode-hook}
>  (@pxref{Major Modes}).
>  
> +@vindex text-mode-ispell-word-completion
> +  Entering Text mode also activates auto-complete hints. If you find
> +that this is disturbing for you, set this variable to @code{nil} in
> +your Emacs initialization code.

This is using the wrong tone for describing the issue: it regards
completion hints in Text Mode as a nuisance in most cases.  If it were
such a nuisance, we ought to make it off by default.

Instead, the text should describe the completion hints feature from
the POV of its being useful, and then say that the variable
text-mode-ispell-word-completion controls it.

Also, @vindex generates no text in the formatted manual, so you need
to mention the variable in the text as well, otherwise "this variable"
will allude to something the text doesn't mention.

Finally, please leave two spaces between sentences, per our
conventions.

> --- a/lisp/textmodes/text-mode.el
> +++ b/lisp/textmodes/text-mode.el
> @@ -145,7 +145,10 @@ text-mode
>  You can thus get the full benefit of adaptive filling
>   (see the variable `adaptive-fill-mode').
>  \\{text-mode-map}
> -Turning on Text mode runs the normal hook `text-mode-hook'."
> +Turning on Text mode runs the normal hook `text-mode-hook'.
> +By default, `text-mode-hook' will enable completion at point with
> +candidates supplied by `ispell'. You can turn this off by
> +setting `text-mode-ispell-word-completion' to `nil'."

This part is okay (modulo the 2 spaces between sentences issue).

Thanks.

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

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Hi,

answers inline.

On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 at 14:42, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> > Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 12:25:18 +0200
> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >
> > so you mean something like the attached patch?
>
> Almost, see below.
>
> > diff --git a/doc/emacs/text.texi b/doc/emacs/text.texi
> > index cb347d59948..f039c42d46c 100644
> > --- a/doc/emacs/text.texi
> > +++ b/doc/emacs/text.texi
> > @@ -954,6 +954,11 @@ Text Mode
> >    Entering Text mode runs the mode hook @code{text-mode-hook}
> >  (@pxref{Major Modes}).
> >
> > +@vindex text-mode-ispell-word-completion
> > +  Entering Text mode also activates auto-complete hints. If you find
> > +that this is disturbing for you, set this variable to @code{nil} in
> > +your Emacs initialization code.
>
> This is using the wrong tone for describing the issue: it regards
> completion hints in Text Mode as a nuisance in most cases.  If it were
> such a nuisance, we ought to make it off by default.
>

I will always remember a friend of mine, who always asked me to disable
auto-completion and hints in his word processor, because they distracted
him too much from his work and line of thought. And, once again, some
concentration deficits need these features to be disabled, so I don't see
this as negative, but reaching out to these communities.


> Instead, the text should describe the completion hints feature from
> the POV of its being useful, and then say that the variable
> text-mode-ispell-word-completion controls it.
>

OK, anyhow, I will try to find another wording.

Also, @vindex generates no text in the formatted manual, so you need
> to mention the variable in the text as well, otherwise "this variable"
> will allude to something the text doesn't mention.
>
> Finally, please leave two spaces between sentences, per our
> conventions.
>
> > --- a/lisp/textmodes/text-mode.el
> > +++ b/lisp/textmodes/text-mode.el
> > @@ -145,7 +145,10 @@ text-mode
> >  You can thus get the full benefit of adaptive filling
> >   (see the variable `adaptive-fill-mode').
> >  \\{text-mode-map}
> > -Turning on Text mode runs the normal hook `text-mode-hook'."
> > +Turning on Text mode runs the normal hook `text-mode-hook'.
> > +By default, `text-mode-hook' will enable completion at point with
> > +candidates supplied by `ispell'. You can turn this off by
> > +setting `text-mode-ispell-word-completion' to `nil'."
>
> This part is okay (modulo the 2 spaces between sentences issue).
>
> Thanks.
>

/PA
-- 
Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Georg Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4142 bytes --]

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

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Hi again,

Is there any conceptual difference between providing flyspell/ispell-mode
and providing
auto-complete suggestions in text mode? I personally don't think so and
would like a more
thorough discussion on this. That we want Emacs to have as many features as
modern text processors
provide is something that I strongly support. That we want all these
features to be activated by default in
text mode merits much more debate. And that we want some and some not is
confusing...

My .002 cents, /PA

On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 at 17:02, Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <
paaguti@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> answers inline.
>
> On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 at 14:42, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
>> > Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2024 12:25:18 +0200
>> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> >
>> > so you mean something like the attached patch?
>>
>> Almost, see below.
>>
>> > diff --git a/doc/emacs/text.texi b/doc/emacs/text.texi
>> > index cb347d59948..f039c42d46c 100644
>> > --- a/doc/emacs/text.texi
>> > +++ b/doc/emacs/text.texi
>> > @@ -954,6 +954,11 @@ Text Mode
>> >    Entering Text mode runs the mode hook @code{text-mode-hook}
>> >  (@pxref{Major Modes}).
>> >
>> > +@vindex text-mode-ispell-word-completion
>> > +  Entering Text mode also activates auto-complete hints. If you find
>> > +that this is disturbing for you, set this variable to @code{nil} in
>> > +your Emacs initialization code.
>>
>> This is using the wrong tone for describing the issue: it regards
>> completion hints in Text Mode as a nuisance in most cases.  If it were
>> such a nuisance, we ought to make it off by default.
>>
>
> I will always remember a friend of mine, who always asked me to disable
> auto-completion and hints in his word processor, because they distracted
> him too much from his work and line of thought. And, once again, some
> concentration deficits need these features to be disabled, so I don't see
> this as negative, but reaching out to these communities.
>
>
>> Instead, the text should describe the completion hints feature from
>> the POV of its being useful, and then say that the variable
>> text-mode-ispell-word-completion controls it.
>>
>
> OK, anyhow, I will try to find another wording.
>
> Also, @vindex generates no text in the formatted manual, so you need
>> to mention the variable in the text as well, otherwise "this variable"
>> will allude to something the text doesn't mention.
>>
>> Finally, please leave two spaces between sentences, per our
>> conventions.
>>
>> > --- a/lisp/textmodes/text-mode.el
>> > +++ b/lisp/textmodes/text-mode.el
>> > @@ -145,7 +145,10 @@ text-mode
>> >  You can thus get the full benefit of adaptive filling
>> >   (see the variable `adaptive-fill-mode').
>> >  \\{text-mode-map}
>> > -Turning on Text mode runs the normal hook `text-mode-hook'."
>> > +Turning on Text mode runs the normal hook `text-mode-hook'.
>> > +By default, `text-mode-hook' will enable completion at point with
>> > +candidates supplied by `ispell'. You can turn this off by
>> > +setting `text-mode-ispell-word-completion' to `nil'."
>>
>> This part is okay (modulo the 2 spaces between sentences issue).
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>
> /PA
> --
> Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
> Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
> Georg Kreisler
>
> Headaches with a Juju log:
> unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
> a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet
>
>

-- 
Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Georg Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5629 bytes --]

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2024 08:32:14 +0200
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Is there any conceptual difference between providing flyspell/ispell-mode and providing
> auto-complete suggestions in text mode?

Yes, there is: auto-complete suggestions happen _before_ you type,
whereas Flyspell happens _after_ you type.

> I personally don't think so and would like a more
> thorough discussion on this. That we want Emacs to have as many features as modern text processors
> provide is something that I strongly support. That we want all these features to be activated by default in
> text mode merits much more debate. And that we want some and some not is confusing...

We already discussed that before installing the feature, but feel free
to start another discussion.

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

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Answers inline,

Best, /PA

On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 at 10:00, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> > Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2024 08:32:14 +0200
> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >
> > Is there any conceptual difference between providing
> flyspell/ispell-mode and providing
> > auto-complete suggestions in text mode?
>
> Yes, there is: auto-complete suggestions happen _before_ you type,
> whereas Flyspell happens _after_ you type.
>
But is that enough to make the activation/deactivation process so different?
I mean. currently, if you want flyspell-mode for a specific mode, you
add
```
(flyspell-mode 1)
```
to the hook function with the rest of the customisations for that mode.
Now, for auto-complete it goes the other way round... you need to add code
to disable it and that is confusing (al4m).

> > I personally don't think so and would like a more
> > thorough discussion on this. That we want Emacs to have as many features
> as modern text processors
> > provide is something that I strongly support. That we want all these
> features to be activated by default in
> > text mode merits much more debate. And that we want some and some not is
> confusing...
>
> We already discussed that before installing the feature, but feel free
> to start another discussion.
>

I missed it... (bad memories from the time when it took place) but yes, I'd
like to be convinced why this feature
needs to be activated by default.

Thx, /PA
-- 
Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Georg Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2764 bytes --]

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2024 12:57:31 +0200
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
>  > Is there any conceptual difference between providing flyspell/ispell-mode and providing
>  > auto-complete suggestions in text mode?
> 
>  Yes, there is: auto-complete suggestions happen _before_ you type,
>  whereas Flyspell happens _after_ you type.
> 
> But is that enough to make the activation/deactivation process so different?
> I mean. currently, if you want flyspell-mode for a specific mode, you 
> add 
> ```
> (flyspell-mode 1)
> ```
> to the hook function with the rest of the customisations for that mode.
> Now, for auto-complete it goes the other way round... you need to add code
> to disable it and that is confusing (al4m).

Sorry, I don't see the big difference.  Flyspell-mode is off by
default, whereas completion hints are on by default, that's all.

> I missed it... (bad memories from the time when it took place) but yes, I'd like to be convinced why this feature
> needs to be activated by default.

Because we considered it to be very useful.

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

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On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 at 13:49, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> > Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2024 12:57:31 +0200
> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >
> >  > Is there any conceptual difference between providing
> flyspell/ispell-mode and providing
> >  > auto-complete suggestions in text mode?
> >
> >  Yes, there is: auto-complete suggestions happen _before_ you type,
> >  whereas Flyspell happens _after_ you type.
> >
> > But is that enough to make the activation/deactivation process so
> different?
> > I mean. currently, if you want flyspell-mode for a specific mode, you
> > add
> > ```
> > (flyspell-mode 1)
> > ```
> > to the hook function with the rest of the customisations for that mode.
> > Now, for auto-complete it goes the other way round... you need to add
> code
> > to disable it and that is confusing (al4m).
>
> Sorry, I don't see the big difference.  Flyspell-mode is off by
> default, whereas completion hints are on by default, that's all.
>

I feel different... The way of turning auto-complete based on ispell off is
less obvious
reading/writing the code that turns flyspell on.


> > I missed it... (bad memories from the time when it took place) but yes,
> I'd like to be convinced why this feature
> > needs to be activated by default.
>
> Because we considered it to be very useful.
>

Yes, but there are situations where this feature may discourage people from
using Emacs... because it
distracts from the task you are performing, because it produces much more
additional output that needs
to be treated by the interface, etc. Once again, all these are
distractions. In the best case they are a nuisance,
but depending on specific conditions they may lead to a person failing to
produce a document or even
worse.

Best, /PA

PS: Anecdote: I've given it a try it for my work in several languages, and
the hit rate was really low. Most of the
time it was just for fun that I looked at the suggestions and I had some
candidates that are off-limits in any
well-mannered conversation ;-)

-- 
Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Georg Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3453 bytes --]

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 07:30:10 +0200
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
>  > But is that enough to make the activation/deactivation process so different?
>  > I mean. currently, if you want flyspell-mode for a specific mode, you 
>  > add 
>  > ```
>  > (flyspell-mode 1)
>  > ```
>  > to the hook function with the rest of the customisations for that mode.
>  > Now, for auto-complete it goes the other way round... you need to add code
>  > to disable it and that is confusing (al4m).
> 
>  Sorry, I don't see the big difference.  Flyspell-mode is off by
>  default, whereas completion hints are on by default, that's all.
> 
> I feel different... The way of turning auto-complete based on ispell off is less obvious
> reading/writing the code that turns flyspell on. 
>  
>  > I missed it... (bad memories from the time when it took place) but yes, I'd like to be convinced why this
>  feature
>  > needs to be activated by default.
> 
>  Because we considered it to be very useful.
> 
> Yes, but there are situations where this feature may discourage people from using Emacs... because it
> distracts from the task you are performing, because it produces much more additional output that needs
> to be treated by the interface, etc. Once again, all these are distractions. In the best case they are a
> nuisance,
> but depending on specific conditions they may lead to a person failing to produce a document or even
> worse.

We don't have to agree: this is why you can customize Emacs to work as
you'd like.  The defaults, by contrast, are set to fit what most users
want.  So we will change the default only if enough people come up
complaining about the current default and preferably provide reasons
other than just annoyance.

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

Hi, again

> El 8 abr 2024, a las 13:27, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> escribió:
> 
>> From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
>> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 07:30:10 +0200
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> 
>>> But is that enough to make the activation/deactivation process so different?
>>> I mean. currently, if you want flyspell-mode for a specific mode, you 
>>> add 
>>> ```
>>> (flyspell-mode 1)
>>> ```
>>> to the hook function with the rest of the customisations for that mode.
>>> Now, for auto-complete it goes the other way round... you need to add code
>>> to disable it and that is confusing (al4m).
>> 
>> Sorry, I don't see the big difference.  Flyspell-mode is off by
>> default, whereas completion hints are on by default, that's all.
>> 
>> I feel different... The way of turning auto-complete based on ispell off is less obvious
>> reading/writing the code that turns flyspell on. 
>> 
>>> I missed it... (bad memories from the time when it took place) but yes, I'd like to be convinced why this
>> feature
>>> needs to be activated by default.
>> 
>> Because we considered it to be very useful.
>> 
>> Yes, but there are situations where this feature may discourage people from using Emacs... because it
>> distracts from the task you are performing, because it produces much more additional output that needs
>> to be treated by the interface, etc. Once again, all these are distractions. In the best case they are a
>> nuisance,
>> but depending on specific conditions they may lead to a person failing to produce a document or even
>> worse.
> 
> We don't have to agree: this is why you can customize Emacs to work as
> you'd like.  The defaults, by contrast, are set to fit what most users
> want.  So we will change the default only if enough people come up
> complaining about the current default and preferably provide reasons
> other than just annoyance.

Let’s agree on not agreeing. I just would like you to understand that it’s not “annoyance” I’m trying to express. I’m just trying to voice my concern that this auto-completion may impact on some people's ability to use Emacs. Concentration deficits are no joke.

On an Emacsish plane, what puzzles me is that the only way I’m able to disable this feature is in early-init.el because the auto-completion function is added when initializing text-mode. 

And I’m worried that a feature with such an impact was so little documented.

Best, /PA

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[tomas]

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On Mon, Apr 08, 2024 at 06:56:25PM +0200, Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez wrote:
> Hi, again

[...]

> Let’s agree on not agreeing [...]

FWIW, I'm with you, Pedro Andrés. The moment this feature
"hits" me, I'll swear twice and I'll have to learn how to
switch it off.

But hey. It's free software.

Life...

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 18:56:25 +0200
> Cc: emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> > We don't have to agree: this is why you can customize Emacs to work as
> > you'd like.  The defaults, by contrast, are set to fit what most users
> > want.  So we will change the default only if enough people come up
> > complaining about the current default and preferably provide reasons
> > other than just annoyance.
> 
> Let’s agree on not agreeing. I just would like you to understand that it’s not “annoyance” I’m trying to express. I’m just trying to voice my concern that this auto-completion may impact on some people's ability to use Emacs. Concentration deficits are no joke.

IME, these completions are more or less the de-facto standard nowadays
in many text-editing environments, so I don't think many people will
be distracted to such a great degree.  I'd rather think they should
expect it.  But time will tell who is right.

> On an Emacsish plane, what puzzles me is that the only way I’m able to disable this feature is in early-init.el because the auto-completion function is added when initializing text-mode. 

You should be able to disable it at any point, provided that you use
Customize or setopt.  If this somehow doesn't work, please submit a
bug report with all the details.

> And I’m worried that a feature with such an impact was so little documented.

It is documented in the same section where Text Mode is described.
But if you have suggestions for improvements in the documentation of
this feature, please send them.

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 19:37:00 +0200
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> From: <tomas@tuxteam.de>
> 
> But hey. It's free software.

Free _customizable_ software.

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> But hey. It's free software.
>
> Free _customizable_ software.

Okay, is that a new phrase people are pushing for to
describe something?

If so, what does it mean?

If not, what do you mean?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[tomas]

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On Mon, Apr 08, 2024 at 08:43:16PM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> But hey. It's free software.
> >
> > Free _customizable_ software.
> 
> Okay, is that a new phrase people are pushing for to
> describe something?

Eli's right: you can (a) make a free software which encourages
users to adapt it (documentation, reflexion (think C-h f)
and so on) or (b) make free software which is so fiendishly
impenetrable ("no serviceable parts inside") that users better
don't.

Emacs goes out of its way to make its innards accessible.
That is a lot of extra work, so (b) happens often for lack
of resources.

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Emanuel Berg]

tomas wrote:

>>> Free _customizable_ software.
>> 
>> Okay, is that a new phrase people are pushing for to
>> describe something?
>
> Eli's right: you can (a) make a free software which
> encourages users to adapt it (documentation, reflexion
> (think C-h f) and so on) or (b) make free software which is
> so fiendishly impenetrable ("no serviceable parts inside")
> that users better don't.

You can make a lot of things but it doesn't affect the
software being free or not as that is a legal term.

Unless the legal documents say something about customization
those terms don't mix.

Free software will have an implied tendency toward
customization is a likely thing on the other hand, since
people into software will be attracted to it and some dude
will eventually fork it and/or add some customization
interface if this isn't originally provided.

But then again in theory one could fork Emacs and inhibit all
customization, extension, Elisp, meta-discussion on ML, the
works - it would ONLY be allowed to use it for
productive work.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

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Hi Eli,

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 at 19:57, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> > Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 18:56:25 +0200
> > Cc: emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> >
> > > We don't have to agree: this is why you can customize Emacs to work as
> > > you'd like.  The defaults, by contrast, are set to fit what most users
> > > want.  So we will change the default only if enough people come up
> > > complaining about the current default and preferably provide reasons
> > > other than just annoyance.
> >
> > Let’s agree on not agreeing. I just would like you to understand that
> it’s not “annoyance” I’m trying to express. I’m just trying to voice my
> concern that this auto-completion may impact on some people's ability to
> use Emacs. Concentration deficits are no joke.
>
> IME, these completions are more or less the de-facto standard nowadays
> in many text-editing environments, so I don't think many people will
> be distracted to such a great degree.  I'd rather think they should
> expect it.  But time will tell who is right.
>

Maybe our backgrounds are different. I have dealt all my life with people
with different degrees of ability, due to condition, age, etc.
Very brilliant people, indeed, who do not shine as much as they could,
because "not many people are distracted by <you name the feature>".
Attention deficits are no joke.


> > On an Emacsish plane, what puzzles me is that the only way I’m able to
> disable this feature is in early-init.el because the auto-completion
> function is added when initializing text-mode.
>
> You should be able to disable it at any point, provided that you use
> Customize or setopt.  If this somehow doesn't work, please submit a
> bug report with all the details.
>

I'm on it...


>
> > And I’m worried that a feature with such an impact was so little
> documented.
>
> It is documented in the same section where Text Mode is described.
> But if you have suggestions for improvements in the documentation of
> this feature, please send them.
>

BR/PA
-- 
Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Georg Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3527 bytes --]

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>
> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2024 07:06:16 +0200
> 
> tomas wrote:
> 
> >>> Free _customizable_ software.
> >> 
> >> Okay, is that a new phrase people are pushing for to
> >> describe something?
> >
> > Eli's right: you can (a) make a free software which
> > encourages users to adapt it (documentation, reflexion
> > (think C-h f) and so on) or (b) make free software which is
> > so fiendishly impenetrable ("no serviceable parts inside")
> > that users better don't.
> 
> You can make a lot of things but it doesn't affect the
> software being free or not as that is a legal term.

There are no legal aspects here, so don't worry about that.  It was
just an assertion that Emacs is not only Free Software, but also
customizable to a very large degree, something that is not necessarily
true for every Free Software project out there, certainly not to such
a degree.

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[tomas]

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On Tue, Apr 09, 2024 at 12:26:30PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > From: Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org>

[...]

> > You can make a lot of things but it doesn't affect the
> > software being free or not as that is a legal term.
> 
> There are no legal aspects here, so don't worry about that.  It was
> just an assertion that Emacs is not only Free Software, but also
> customizable to a very large degree, something that is not necessarily
> true for every Free Software project out there, certainly not to such
> a degree.

IOW: (user) freedom doesn't end at legal boundaries :-)

Cheers (& thanks!)
-- 
t

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Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

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Hi again,

Maybe the attached patch to the doc can help other people and show why I
was confused. It's the first time I have to disable a feature globally to
then activate it for specific modes.

To a possible question about the motivation:

I use .txt for quick scribbles, logs etc. where completion-at-point stands
in the way of productivity, but I might give it a try in.. say.. org-mode.

On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 at 07:22, Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <
paaguti@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Eli,
>
> On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 at 19:57, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
>> > Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 18:56:25 +0200
>> > Cc: emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>> >
>> > > We don't have to agree: this is why you can customize Emacs to work as
>> > > you'd like.  The defaults, by contrast, are set to fit what most users
>> > > want.  So we will change the default only if enough people come up
>> > > complaining about the current default and preferably provide reasons
>> > > other than just annoyance.
>> >
>> > Let’s agree on not agreeing. I just would like you to understand that
>> it’s not “annoyance” I’m trying to express. I’m just trying to voice my
>> concern that this auto-completion may impact on some people's ability to
>> use Emacs. Concentration deficits are no joke.
>>
>> IME, these completions are more or less the de-facto standard nowadays
>> in many text-editing environments, so I don't think many people will
>> be distracted to such a great degree.  I'd rather think they should
>> expect it.  But time will tell who is right.
>>
>
> Maybe our backgrounds are different. I have dealt all my life with people
> with different degrees of ability, due to condition, age, etc.
> Very brilliant people, indeed, who do not shine as much as they could,
> because "not many people are distracted by <you name the feature>".
> Attention deficits are no joke.
>
>
>> > On an Emacsish plane, what puzzles me is that the only way I’m able to
>> disable this feature is in early-init.el because the auto-completion
>> function is added when initializing text-mode.
>>
>> You should be able to disable it at any point, provided that you use
>> Customize or setopt.  If this somehow doesn't work, please submit a
>> bug report with all the details.
>>
>
> I'm on it...
>
>
>>
>> > And I’m worried that a feature with such an impact was so little
>> documented.
>>
>> It is documented in the same section where Text Mode is described.
>> But if you have suggestions for improvements in the documentation of
>> this feature, please send them.
>>
>
> BR/PA
> --
> Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
> Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
> Georg Kreisler
>
> Headaches with a Juju log:
> unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
> a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet
>
>

-- 
Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Georg Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 4878 bytes --]

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diff --git a/doc/emacs/text.texi b/doc/emacs/text.texi
index f5e31fd277f..2bfc405936d 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/text.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/text.texi
@@ -950,13 +950,19 @@ Text Mode
 spelling dictionary as the space of possible words by default.
 @xref{Spelling}.  If your window manager defines @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} to
 switch windows, you can type @kbd{@key{ESC} @key{TAB}} or @kbd{C-M-i}
-instead.  To disable this completion, customize the variable
+instead.  To disable this completion globally, customize the variable
 @code{text-mode-ispell-word-completion} to the @code{nil} value.
 
+To selectively enable this completion for some modes derived from
+@code{text-mode} only, disable it globally and then use @code{setopt}
+to set its value to @code{'completion-at-point} in the hook for the
+mode where you want to have completion.
+
 @vindex text-mode-hook
   Entering Text mode runs the mode hook @code{text-mode-hook}
 (@pxref{Major Modes}).
 
+
   The following sections describe several major modes that are
 @dfn{derived} from Text mode.  These derivatives share most of the
 features of Text mode described above.  In particular, derivatives of

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:45:15 +0200
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Maybe the attached patch to the doc can help other people and show why I was confused. It's the first time I
> have to disable a feature globally to then activate it for specific modes.
> 
> To a possible question about the motivation:
> 
> I use .txt for quick scribbles, logs etc. where completion-at-point stands in the way of productivity, but I might
> give it a try in.. say.. org-mode.

Does what you suggest for the manual really work?  Calling setopt in
this case modified the keymap of text-mode, and that has a global
effect.

I really don't think buffer-local tricks like this one belong to the
Emacs user manual.  Users who have such a need will have to read the
code and figure this out for themselves.  The purpose of documenting
this in the user manual is to make the feature discoverable; once
discovered, tweaking it should be easy, and doesn't need to be
described in the user manual.

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[tomas]

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On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 04:07:12PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:45:15 +0200
> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > 
> > Maybe the attached patch to the doc can help other people and show why I was confused. It's the first time I
> > have to disable a feature globally to then activate it for specific modes.
> > 
> > To a possible question about the motivation:
> > 
> > I use .txt for quick scribbles, logs etc. where completion-at-point stands in the way of productivity, but I might
> > give it a try in.. say.. org-mode.
> 
> Does what you suggest for the manual really work?  Calling setopt in
> this case modified the keymap of text-mode, and that has a global
> effect.
> 
> I really don't think buffer-local tricks like this one belong to the
> Emacs user manual.  Users who have such a need will have to read the
> code and figure this out for themselves.  The purpose of documenting
> this in the user manual is to make the feature discoverable; once
> discovered, tweaking it should be easy, and doesn't need to be
> described in the user manual.

But how do you propose the OP solves their problem at hand?

Asking because that'll likely become my problem on next version
upgrade.

Cheers & thanks
-- 
tomás

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Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 15:35:34 +0200
> Cc: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From:  <tomas@tuxteam.de>
> 
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 04:07:12PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > > From: Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez <paaguti@gmail.com>
> > > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:45:15 +0200
> > > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > > 
> > Does what you suggest for the manual really work?  Calling setopt in
> > this case modified the keymap of text-mode, and that has a global
> > effect.
> > 
> > I really don't think buffer-local tricks like this one belong to the
> > Emacs user manual.  Users who have such a need will have to read the
> > code and figure this out for themselves.  The purpose of documenting
> > this in the user manual is to make the feature discoverable; once
> > discovered, tweaking it should be easy, and doesn't need to be
> > described in the user manual.
> 
> But how do you propose the OP solves their problem at hand?

See bug#70321.

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[tomas]

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On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 04:58:13PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

[...]

> > But how do you propose the OP solves their problem at hand?
> 
> See bug#70321.

Ah, I see: so there's no way to disable generally and enable
selectively. Fair enough.

Thanks!

cheers
-- 
tomás

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Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez]

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Would it be possible to have the function to selectively turn off
auto-completion in the Emacs code base?
That could be the first step towards auto-completion behaving like flyspell
or similar stuff...

/PA

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 16:10, <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 04:58:13PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > But how do you propose the OP solves their problem at hand?
> >
> > See bug#70321.
>
> Ah, I see: so there's no way to disable generally and enable
> selectively. Fair enough.
>
> Thanks!
>
> cheers
> --
> tomás
>


-- 
Fragen sind nicht da, um beantwortet zu werden,
Fragen sind da um gestellt zu werden
Georg Kreisler

Headaches with a Juju log:
unit-basic-16: 09:17:36 WARNING juju.worker.uniter.operation we should run
a leader-deposed hook here, but we can't yet

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1443 bytes --]

Re: MINI-PATCH: add how to turn auto-completion in test buffers off

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 16:10:20 +0200
> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> Cc: paaguti@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 04:58:13PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > But how do you propose the OP solves their problem at hand?
> > 
> > See bug#70321.
> 
> Ah, I see: so there's no way to disable generally and enable
> selectively.

There is, just not via the option's value.