From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 05:28:00 +0300 Message-ID: <86r0b2peq7.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87sevj9b50.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <871q33rj7v.fsf@dataswamp.org> <86ed73qhly.fsf@gnu.org> <87frrjoryg.fsf_-_@dataswamp.org> <86wmkuq60j.fsf@gnu.org> <87a5hqq4v3.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87ikweepit.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35304"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: dimech@gmx.com, incal@dataswamp.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 06 04:28:46 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sb9wM-00090c-1q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 04:28:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sb9vk-0000TC-5v; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:28:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sb9vi-0000KI-B5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:28:06 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sb9vf-0007bh-Ix; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:28:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=5UqAln3BggTzcCfe1mIPMyTx3Czz6YuK+X0qGOTKc30=; b=CEnL7IVncV0bOQ/pIHnV rl6OMzqMXdVcoaCMbyGqFdJV2CLgsAD8wRX5LpXzQkxEFmQBJ/LcHeNnwVYB/h66nhTsf8YkWxg3C Lg99UzziqZGouinkprWXACTD8cnkVWZJFIHKZbLixL5XvWo7GnNE4ga8wTrlFnmUz8mAOLwZyJv+H OOL9J1XElTdMqvfCPjk393eSVDQBfHiUcuYFeouro2FPH77ANx/E9hBji8xglahi2fX1Ia8IhoaZG 7RtzF4CZ/xanY2EpnszB5T9fvlg/odNCi34ktqtP9MjGPjXIQd02hhvWb2lP4tL4YjDErq+1VXEco pF8H00G9E+c9vw==; In-Reply-To: <87ikweepit.fsf@web.de> (arne_bab@web.de) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322420 Archived-At: > From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" > Cc: Emanuel Berg , emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 21:30:18 +0200 > > Christopher Dimech writes: > > > It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that > > have had a prior exposure to Python, as potential programmers they are > > mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. > > Having learned Scheme after learning Python, I strongly disagree — both > to your point and to your ugly portrayal of people. > > You point: Python helps to understand Scheme because it provides > fundamentals to structure reasoning. To separate concerns. To test with > low overhead. To access data in common formats. To do the task you care > about instead of adhering to ceremony. Going from Python to Scheme isn’t > hard. suggest reading "The Adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland": > http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/scheme/ > > Your portrayal: this dehumanizing language has no place in a discussion. > Badmouthing people does a disservice to any point you want to make. > > > In the good old days physicists repeated each other's experiments, just > > to be sure. Today they stick to Python, so that they can share each > > other's programs, bugs included. > > Replace "Python" with whatever programming language they use. > > If you think, Physicists do not share C++ code, or matlab code, or (yes) > Fortran-code, where did you get this notion? Did you work with them? > (I did) > > Did you read code of large weather models? > > Meteorologists who prove the deviations of a model down to phase shifts > before they write the first line of code (do you do that before you > write a program?) are still happy to share code. They know what they get > and what they share. > Theoretical meteorology (at least in a faculty that works with that) is > an eye-opener for how primitive software development of typical business > software often is (this is not derogatory: business software has other > main challenges, like staying maintainable in the face of constantly > changing requirements). > > Physicists who write a Python tool and then add a Cython part compiled > to C to get native performance and who test this in detail against > different existing tools using multitudes of parameters and datasets > will still happily share code. > > Physicists who write a Python model that binds complex atmospheric > transport Fortran code know what they do: they keep the > non-performance-critical parts in Python, because that enables them to > spend more time on the actually critical parts. > > Don’t go badmouthing other people. > > The disdain spread among software developers against Fortran caused me > to lose a lot of time during my PhD until I finally understood how > misguided it is. > > Please don’t repeat that mistake with Python. This is all again off-topic here. Please take this sub-thread to emacs-tangents.