From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Danilo Segan Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Suggestion: Mapping of M-g should be goto-line Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:47:13 +0100 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <86ptb1ca3i.fsf@avet.kvota.net> References: <861xnhfee8.fsf@avet.kvota.net> <86brmldvbd.fsf@avet.kvota.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1080238427 30885 80.91.224.253 (25 Mar 2004 18:13:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:13:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Juanma Barranquero , Lucas , "Jari Aalto+mail.linux" , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 25 19:13:37 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B6ZMH-0000Fn-00 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:13:37 +0100 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1B6ZMG-0006LD-00 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:13:37 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B6Vju-0004xo-Rc for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:21:46 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B6VhD-0004d8-21 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:18:59 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1B6Vgf-0004VO-8n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:18:57 -0500 Original-Received: from [217.65.193.23] (helo=avet.kvota.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B6Vga-0004Ty-QO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:18:23 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 32402 invoked by uid 1001); 25 Mar 2004 13:47:13 -0000 Original-To: David Kastrup Mail-Followup-To: David Kastrup , jari.aalto@poboxes.com (Jari Aalto+mail.linux), Juanma Barranquero , Lucas , emacs-devel@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (David Kastrup's message of "25 Mar 2004 13:27:55 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:20920 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:20920 Today at 13:27, David Kastrup wrote: > Danilo Segan writes: > >> For "average joe", we want to make them learn the better way. > > No. We want them to be able to use Emacs productively. I thought "better way" is a way of being more productive. They can be 'productive' also if they count lines one-by-one, and jump to the wanted line that way, but it's certainly not a "better way" (except in some situations where we might proclaim that this will cause them to review lots of previously written text, so it's "better" ;). > One does not do this by artificial deficiencies. That an > experienced user will often be able to avoid using goto-line my more > involved procedures does not mean that it does not have its place. > And in particular, the user will not magically discover useful > alternatives just because goto-line is hard to use. Indeed. That's why useful alternatives need to be better exposed. If you read my mails, you'd notice that that is what I actually asked for. You may notice that I mentioned that (server-start) would be better as a default (there're probably security and other implications, so I'm not saying to take it as is now), and that I recommended M-g for next-error, and C-x ` for goto-line, because the former is (or at least should be, IMO) more useful. > The way to teach people is to make the information for better and > more complex alternatives better accessible, not by sabotaging use of > simpler commands. Exactly. Can you please point out where did I suggest anything remotely similar to what you're implying here? > I certainly count as a power user with Emacs, and even I use M-x > goto-line more often than, uh, set-face-whatever. And "M-g" for > goto-line is certainly much more mnemonic that "face-whatever". I never said that face-* belongs there. I specifically said that it may be dumped altogether, and some modes (like enriched) could bring it back. That still doesn't mean that goto-line is a good function for that keybinding. Better, yes, but can we do even better still? That's what I asked, and that's what I'm asking. As Lupus pointed out, "C-x `" is hard to type on at least French keyboard, so that's another reason for binding next-error to another key such as M-g. [Emacs FAQ already documents some of this in the question "How can I go to a certain line given its number?" -- perhaps it would need an update?] Cheers, Danilo