From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: discoverability, better defaults and which-key in Emacs Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2024 15:52:35 +0200 Message-ID: <86o7crvza4.fsf@gnu.org> References: <874jetaxri.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <87le84oqbd.fsf@yahoo.com> <87plxdpsxw.fsf@posteo.net> <87r0hridvr.fsf@posteo.net> <5dd3d04c-c0eb-43fe-b7c2-957f80261ea3@gutov.dev> <87eddqiw84.fsf@posteo.net> <32071337-c91d-46ad-bb9b-10b8d0c83965@gutov.dev> <86h6ikzc38.fsf@gnu.org> <1056a72d-af5c-487e-be33-67522fe47d17@gutov.dev> <87r0hnohgv.fsf@gmail.com> <86a5obxwy9.fsf@gnu.org> <61ffccc8-56c0-4b14-9420-2d0fd9cac216@gutov.dev> <86r0hnw1l1.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6679"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: visuweshm@gmail.com, justin@burkett.cc, philipk@posteo.net, luangruo@yahoo.com, jb@jeremybryant.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 08 14:52:56 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rY4pk-0001SX-6A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 08 Feb 2024 14:52:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rY4pY-0000JT-7X; Thu, 08 Feb 2024 08:52:44 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rY4pW-0000Fp-C5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Feb 2024 08:52:42 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rY4pV-0000PD-L1; Thu, 08 Feb 2024 08:52:41 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=mHJKciqpbMttXFIOzfSjx/DGupLuLp0XHhw5EX0KSrs=; b=Bbnz5BNSa7OM mU2JHqY1hVOTwh2uD7MbyOic/84YSeDPkno15Vu0i/8b/j31WDS39weV7buob/R6KIhhjXE2NX1EA lC7fMbfb7itx9i74hhaIzUa28djVwHYDSOfht98PAJvLlcT3AE8ZLhAkGoAaq/ylZwz29LRCB35hu 4A2M4xArmOjvPaTSxdnea7qrJwzdqjHWMGLUSh0dB/X/h2bo1x5WqCsGFg71uneVS+XjjnYwblHdX kbB1nFErGY0EnIpEHwg93syx/j9jNQRTLSpzr7vUBTJpjr/ej/EAwI48BivnRfY6/bDz8CVPUEjBh B/IiQ40bn79Je+RK4iNGKw==; In-Reply-To: (message from Dmitry Gutov on Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:36:43 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316034 Archived-At: > Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:36:43 +0200 > Cc: visuweshm@gmail.com, justin@burkett.cc, philipk@posteo.net, > luangruo@yahoo.com, jb@jeremybryant.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Dmitry Gutov > > > How frequently do people rebind F1? IME, never. > > Sure, likewise with C-h. No, C-h is different. At least in the past some people wanted it to do the same as Backspace (we even have a special mode for that contingency). But F1 was a relatively late addition to Emacs, from when people were accustomed to have it invoke some help function, and no application I'm aware of has it bound to something else, unlike some other Fn keys. So I'm quite surprised to hear your "sure" above. Did you actually see that in the wild? > > Most people will never rebind C-h. Those who do could rebind it to a > > character that cannot be used in this situation because it is already > > bound in various prefix maps. Having two alternatives there increases > > the probability that one of them will work. > > If we consider the situations where C-h or f1 is rebound, having > misleading text in the message (with bindings that don't work) should > concern us as well. Even if one of the suggestions is likely to work > anyway (while the other doesn't). If you can come up with a code that detects at run time that help-key and/or F1 was rebound to a key that will not invoke describe-prefix-bindings, such a key should indeed better be removed from the message. But can we reliably do that? If we cannot, having two keys there instead of one is better.