yow.c

yow.c

[Eli Zaretskii]

It looks like we no longer use lib-src/yow.c anywhere in Emacs.

Assuming I didn't miss anything, does anyone see any reason not to
remove it?

Re: yow.c

[Andreas Schwab]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> It looks like we no longer use lib-src/yow.c anywhere in Emacs.

Do you mean we no longer use $archlibdir/yow?  Actually I don't think it
was ever used by Emacs itself, definitely not by yow.el.

> Assuming I didn't miss anything, does anyone see any reason not to
> remove it?

I think it could be useful as a standalone program, and could be moved to
$bindir.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: yow.c

[Richard Stallman]

    It looks like we no longer use lib-src/yow.c anywhere in Emacs.

I don't think it was ever called directly from Emacs.  The code is
included in case someone wants to run it from elsewhere.

Eben Moglen says we have to delete it, so please do delete it.

Re: yow.c

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 12:55:04 -0400
> 
>     It looks like we no longer use lib-src/yow.c anywhere in Emacs.
> 
> I don't think it was ever called directly from Emacs.  The code is
> included in case someone wants to run it from elsewhere.
> 
> Eben Moglen says we have to delete it, so please do delete it.

Done.

Re: yow.c

[Richard Stallman]

    > Eben Moglen says we have to delete it, so please do delete it.

    Done.

Thanks.

Unfortunately, we have to delete yow.lines as well.
Could you do that, too?

Re: yow.c

[David Kastrup]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     > Eben Moglen says we have to delete it, so please do delete it.
>
>     Done.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Unfortunately, we have to delete yow.lines as well.
> Could you do that, too?

That would render the M-x yow RET command inoperative.  Perhaps it
might be an idea to ask the copyright holder on the Zippy comic
whether he'd license the current set of lines in a way suitable for
Emacs distribution.  Apologies if this has been done already and
declined.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: yow.c

[Richard Stallman]

    That would render the M-x yow RET command inoperative.

Yes, we should delete that too.

We have not tried contacting him, but it seems very unlikely.  Various
other free programs had such a facility, and they have deleted it.

Re: yow.c

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "David" == David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

David> That would render the M-x yow RET command inoperative.  Perhaps it
David> might be an idea to ask the copyright holder on the Zippy comic
David> whether he'd license the current set of lines in a way suitable for
David> Emacs distribution.  Apologies if this has been done already and
David> declined.

And don't forget M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead, one of my favorite things
to do when I'm really bored (which is rare).

Can we leave all the plumbing in place, and just put a few custom-created
sample lines instead?  I can write a few and donate them if you want.  I'm
sure we could get enough in the next few days to fill a file if everyone
pitches in.

        There's NO TELLING where my DOG runs in his SLEEP!

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
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RE: yow.c

[Drew Adams]

    Can we leave all the plumbing in place, and just put a few
    custom-created
    sample lines instead?  I can write a few and donate them if you
    want.  I'm
    sure we could get enough in the next few days to fill a file if everyone
    pitches in.

I second that idea. The plumbing is useful beyond the particular quotes
used.

It's a sad day of demise for Zippy, however. I'm afraid Emacs will never be
the same without him.

Carrying out Randal's suggestion would effectively give the Zip another
life. Free (AIF) Zippy!

Re: yow.c

[Richard Stallman]

    Can we leave all the plumbing in place, and just put a few custom-created
    sample lines instead?  I can write a few and donate them if you want.

Yes, we can do that.

Re: yow.c

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 07:03:52 -0400
> 
> Unfortunately, we have to delete yow.lines as well.

??? But yow.el uses that file.

Re: yow.c

[Richard Stallman]

    > Unfortunately, we have to delete yow.lines as well.

    ??? But yow.el uses that file.

Yes, we should delete yow.el also, since it will be useless.  Would
you please do it?

Re: yow.c

[Juri Linkov]

>     > Unfortunately, we have to delete yow.lines as well.
>
>     ??? But yow.el uses that file.
>
> Yes, we should delete yow.el also, since it will be useless.  Would
> you please do it?

Please don't.  I use yow.el with a local file to print funny one-line
error messages, i.e. what I do is

  (fset 'undefined 'yow)
  (setq yow-file ".../talker.msg")

and when a wrong key is pressed in a read-only buffer, it displays a
misleading error message.  For instance, trying to visit a file in the
dired buffer with a wrong key may display such an error message:

  File not found. Should I fake it? (y/n)
or
  Close your eyes and press escape three times.

This is useful to always get ready for any surprise :-)

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: yow.c

[Sam Steingold]

> * Juri Linkov <whev@whegn.bet> [2006-06-13 16:32:07 +0300]:
>
>>     > Unfortunately, we have to delete yow.lines as well.
>>
>>     ??? But yow.el uses that file.
>>
>> Yes, we should delete yow.el also, since it will be useless.  Would
>> you please do it?
>
> Please don't.  I use yow.el with a local file to print funny one-line
> error messages, i.e. what I do is
>
>   (fset 'undefined 'yow)
>   (setq yow-file ".../talker.msg")

(fset 'undefined
      (lambda ()
        (interactive)
        (message "%s" (cookie ".../talker.msg" nil nil))))

-- 
Sam Steingold (http://www.podval.org/~sds) on Fedora Core release 5 (Bordeaux)
http://pmw.org.il http://dhimmi.com http://truepeace.org
http://mideasttruth.com http://openvotingconsortium.org
Lisp: it's here to save your butt.

Re: yow.c

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Sam" == Sam Steingold <sds@podval.org> writes:

>> Please don't.  I use yow.el with a local file to print funny one-line
>> error messages, i.e. what I do is
>> 
>> (fset 'undefined 'yow)
>> (setq yow-file ".../talker.msg")

Sam> (fset 'undefined
Sam>       (lambda ()
Sam>         (interactive)
Sam>         (message "%s" (cookie ".../talker.msg" nil nil))))

I'm confused.  I just saw yow.c disappear yesterday, but I thought
RMS said "leave it in, and replace the yow.lines with safe stuff".

Can someone with commit bits undo the yow damage, please?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
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Re: yow.c

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
> Date: 13 Jun 2006 07:51:24 -0700
> 
> >>>>> "Sam" == Sam Steingold <sds@podval.org> writes:
> 
> >> Please don't.  I use yow.el with a local file to print funny one-line
> >> error messages, i.e. what I do is
> >> 
> >> (fset 'undefined 'yow)
> >> (setq yow-file ".../talker.msg")
> 
> Sam> (fset 'undefined
> Sam>       (lambda ()
> Sam>         (interactive)
> Sam>         (message "%s" (cookie ".../talker.msg" nil nil))))
> 
> I'm confused.  I just saw yow.c disappear yesterday, but I thought
> RMS said "leave it in, and replace the yow.lines with safe stuff".

Richard said that about yow.el, not yow.c.  The latter is not used by
anything in Emacs.

yow.el was not deleted.

> Can someone with commit bits undo the yow damage, please?

What damage?  No Emacs feature was removed, AFAIK.

Re: yow.c

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

Eli> Richard said that about yow.el, not yow.c.  The latter is not used by
Eli> anything in Emacs.

Well, it was installed into the bin directory, I thought, and uses the same
yow.lines file which was in question.  Now that the strategy of how to replace
yow.lines has been decided, there's no reason to remove the yow command-line
program.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: yow.c

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
> Date: 13 Jun 2006 11:21:40 -0700
> 
> Now that the strategy of how to replace yow.lines has been decided,
> there's no reason to remove the yow command-line program.

The original reason I asked Richard whether to remove yow.c had
nothing to do with yow.lines.  I asked that because yow.c is a
stand-alone program that is not used by any Emacs feature.  The
programs we install all serve some Emacs-related purpose.

Re: yow.c

[Richard Stallman]

      Now that the strategy of how to replace
    yow.lines has been decided, there's no reason to remove the yow command-line
    program.

yow.c has been removed for independent legal reasons.

Re: yow.c

[Richard Stallman]

    Please don't.  I use yow.el with a local file to print funny one-line
    error messages, i.e. what I do is

It doesn't make sense to keep the yow function in such a way
that when run in the usual way it won't work.

However, if we replace yow.lines with our own nonsequiturs, that would
be a fine solution (as I said before).  Please, people, go ahead.

Re: yow.c

[Jay Belanger]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     Please don't.  I use yow.el with a local file to print funny one-line
>     error messages, i.e. what I do is
>
> It doesn't make sense to keep the yow function in such a way
> that when run in the usual way it won't work.
>
> However, if we replace yow.lines with our own nonsequiturs, that would
> be a fine solution (as I said before).  Please, people, go ahead.

As near as I can tell, the Zippyisms are bizarre phrases with random
words in all-caps.  I'm sure there's more to it than that, though.
What sort of lines belong in yow.lines?

Jay

Re: yow.c

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Jay" == Jay Belanger <belanger@truman.edu> writes:

Jay> As near as I can tell, the Zippyisms are bizarre phrases with random
Jay> words in all-caps.  I'm sure there's more to it than that, though.
Jay> What sort of lines belong in yow.lines?

The point is that it's a non-sequitor.  Imagine your dumbest friend, but then
saying something that made you chuckle, perhaps because of the emphasis on
some part of it that's completely obvious to you.

The easiest way is to let your brain free-wheel:

        When I TIE my SHOES, shouldn't they STAY TIED?

It helps to read the existing file for a few hundred samples. :)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
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Re: yow.c

[Jay Belanger]

merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:
>>>>>> "Jay" == Jay Belanger <belanger@truman.edu> writes:
>
> Jay> As near as I can tell, the Zippyisms are bizarre phrases with random
> Jay> words in all-caps.  I'm sure there's more to it than that, though.
> Jay> What sort of lines belong in yow.lines?
>
> The point is that it's a non-sequitor.

To what?  The lines appear by themselves.

> Imagine your dumbest friend, but then saying something that made you
> chuckle, perhaps because of the emphasis on some part of it that's
> completely obvious to you.

Okay.  

> The easiest way is to let your brain free-wheel:
>
>         When I TIE my SHOES, shouldn't they STAY TIED?

If I DRINK a SODA, it helps to OPEN the BOTTLE.
??

> It helps to read the existing file for a few hundred samples. :)

The current file only contains two samples, which is why I want to
find out how to add them.  (It doesn't yet include your:
    There's NO TELLING where my DOG runs in his SLEEP!)

It was suggested that it'd be unlikely the original lines would be
released under a license suitable for inclusion in Emacs, but would
there be an objection if I wrote and asked?

Jay

Re: yow.c

[Richard Stallman]

    If I DRINK a SODA, it helps to OPEN the BOTTLE.

That makes too much logical sense to be a Zippyism.
I think this

    If I DRINK a SODA, it helps to lick the KITE STRING.

is more the idea.

Re: yow.c

[Jay Belanger]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     If I DRINK a SODA, it helps to OPEN the BOTTLE.
>
> That makes too much logical sense to be a Zippyism.

Well of course.
The only time I make sense is when I'm trying not to.

> I think this
>
>     If I DRINK a SODA, it helps to lick the KITE STRING.
>
> is more the idea.

Okay.
I've been sent some lines which perhaps could be added to yow.lines.
How many lines can someone add before papers would need to be signed?

Jay

Re: yow.c

[Richard Stallman]

    How many lines can someone add before papers would need to be signed?

We can surely accept 5 from any person.

Re: yow.c

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

Richard>     How many lines can someone add before papers would need to be signed?
Richard> We can surely accept 5 from any person.

here's my second contribution...

  If it weren't for LAWYERS, we wouldn't NEED THEM!

:-)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Re: yow.c

[David Kastrup]

merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:

>>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
> Richard>     How many lines can someone add before papers would need
> Richard> to be signed?  We can surely accept 5 from any person.
>
> here's my second contribution...
>
>   If it weren't for LAWYERS, we wouldn't NEED THEM!

I have to agree with Miles.  The proposals I have seen so far are
quite substandard.  I don't consider it likely we could manage to come
up with a process that would yield a significant quota of worthwhile
contributions without causing people to get miffed in the process.

While I thought producing substitute Zippyisms a good idea at first,
it does not seem like it could be done just like that.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: yow.c

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "David" == David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

David> While I thought producing substitute Zippyisms a good idea at first,
David> it does not seem like it could be done just like that.

OK, then leave the plumbing, and put the reason yow.lines was truncated
at the top of the file (above the NUL), and include only one quote:

  THIS FILE HAS BEEN TRUNCATED FOR THIS RELEASE:
  you are encouraged to add your own quotes.
  See etc/yow.lines for details and replacement format.

That way, they'll still get *something*, but it's clear that it's not the
original and it also will encourage other files to be inserted (perhaps a GPL
fortune file or something).

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: yow.c

[Richard Stallman]

    It was suggested that it'd be unlikely the original lines would be
    released under a license suitable for inclusion in Emacs, but would
    there be an objection if I wrote and asked?

Please don't do this without first talking with Eben Moglen.