From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Evans Winner Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:02:48 -0700 Message-ID: <86lk5f4fjb.fsf@timbral.net> References: <87myq4saw1.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <878x1ov227.fsf@jurta.org> <878x1os6mt.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <47B39231.8010108@gmail.com> <200802151711.m1FHB3Y3008798@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <200802171658.m1HGwQ4h011067@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <20080219085231.GA1032@muc.de> <200802190938.m1J9ccVg016565@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <20080219190127.GA1106@muc.de> <877ih0o9dx.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1203534569 26890 80.91.229.12 (20 Feb 2008 19:09:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:09:29 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 20 20:09:53 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JRuKH-0003za-14 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:09:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuJl-00034J-Cv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:09:21 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuJg-00034A-1T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:09:16 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuJd-00033C-Nk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:09:15 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuJd-000335-Jn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:09:13 -0500 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JRuJd-0002YG-2a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:09:13 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuJa-0003Fv-U6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:09:10 +0000 Original-Received: from 67.42.142.120 ([67.42.142.120]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:09:10 +0000 Original-Received: from thorne by 67.42.142.120 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:09:10 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 48 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.42.142.120 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:yBzDX2FHSQgysf1i8ZA+7vDKvyE= X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:89726 Archived-At: I am not an Emacs developer, but am an avid user, and thought my input might be useful. It strikes me that enabling hand-holding features by default in Emacs may not actually be a favor to new users. Very early on in my learning to use Emacs (several years ago) I found out how to enable transient-mark-mode. I enabled it blindly on somebody's advice, in essence, because I didn't know about or understand the actual use for which the mark is designed. I didn't question the feature because it mimics one that I was used to from other applications. It was only as a result of reading this thread that I looked into the use of the mark and have begun to understand what I have been missing. So, my experience is similar (though not identical) to that of someone new to an Emacs in which transient-mark-mode is enabled by default. On the other hand, at that time, I was one of those who had the idea that GUIs are for wimps, so I also disabled menu-bar-mode and tool-bar-mode. The result was as intended: I was forced to learn the Emacs way of doing many things and now, though there was a bit more initial investment in learning, I am very happy I did it. I believe the time invested has paid off, even though I no longer have any objection to GUIs (if designed well), and even though I leave those features turned on now. One principle of teaching is that learners tend to strongly favor the first mental model of something or method to which they are exposed. From Wikipedia: `` `Unteaching' wrong first impressions is harder than teaching them right the first time.''[1] In general, tools or systems designed to do something really well require a greater initial outlay of time or money to use, but pay off over the long term. I won't bother advocating that menus and tool bars and scroll bars be deactivated by default, but I would at least suggest that the right principle is that if a feature would make it actively more difficult to use Emacs in the way that it is fundamentally designed to be used, then that feature ought not to be active by default. Footnotes: [1] Wikipedia; Principles of learning; Primacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_learning#Primacy