From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stephen Leake Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: access to ELPA development packages? Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700 Message-ID: <86k0lc5mm2.fsf@stephe-leake.org> References: <868s1z42nz.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <864kcm4hf7.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <87lf5xi945.fsf@posteo.net> <87im0wztl6.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25437"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (windows-nt) Cc: bozhidar@batsov.dev, Richard Stallman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 27 07:54:08 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m8G2Z-0006Od-Ji for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 07:54:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58514 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m8G2X-000584-LS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 01:54:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43692) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m8G20-0004S7-5A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 01:53:32 -0400 Original-Received: from gateway32.websitewelcome.com ([192.185.145.100]:30606) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m8G1y-0003KX-D8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 01:53:31 -0400 Original-Received: from cm11.websitewelcome.com (cm11.websitewelcome.com [100.42.49.5]) by gateway32.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872B62ACBC1 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 00:53:13 -0500 (CDT) Original-Received: from host2007.hostmonster.com ([67.20.76.71]) by cmsmtp with SMTP id 8G1hmybdqK61i8G1hmCoEv; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 00:53:13 -0500 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stephe-leake.org; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=J9ZfZa9dauiXWQVy62572OGPoFxGGXY+4pbFsDdWkB8=; b=P3/p9tF00zX2Z5y/tyj6gxE63D ORr5bwImXJ1EBOuqNj7xVF7wDmpsq22Hf3U654F8LElC5ZHn59eKzHUTSWDhbfKygfkhCDn+vhif4 PawdS5ydS2iyoasU0WM0xnynGncr+nM+VP2Fn+sPs8Kl69t8GDtQPMDbjfvRRrpb14+M9qvv6ceR+ Z+IdxapRR4RmhokgxsrriE1OOSvyKCNM+6yoAPIyJbZFLtHifwKzv8xrDoGDi48uVv9cz2xWSJEGM HOL4V+DigJ3485FkYANxPXxsnNX1NgtRQMYEYSkRltgMohNlxy4mA+7Wwi7c14bE0aBl6LwIeLSTU 6HwCbXmQ==; Original-Received: from [76.77.182.20] (port=61782 helo=Takver4) by host2007.hostmonster.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1m8G1g-004MJh-Jp; Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:53:12 -0600 In-Reply-To: <87im0wztl6.fsf@posteo.net> (Philip Kaludercic's message of "Mon, 26 Jul 2021 20:52:05 +0000") X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host2007.hostmonster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - stephe-leake.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 76.77.182.20 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1m8G1g-004MJh-Jp X-Source-Sender: (Takver4) [76.77.182.20]:61782 X-Source-Auth: stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org X-Email-Count: 4 X-Source-Cap: c3RlcGhlbGU7c3RlcGhlbGU7aG9zdDIwMDcuaG9zdG1vbnN0ZXIuY29t X-Local-Domain: yes Received-SPF: permerror client-ip=192.185.145.100; envelope-from=stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org; helo=gateway32.websitewelcome.com X-Spam_score_int: -8 X-Spam_score: -0.9 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:271682 Archived-At: Philip Kaludercic writes: > Richard Stallman writes: > >> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >> >> > I fear that promoting the devel repo might have people use it even if >> > they don't have to, leading to the same kinds of issues that MELPA has. >> >> I don't know whether this is a valid concern, but I think the issue is >> important enough that we need to discuss whether it is a valid concern. >> >> Could you please explain the problematical usage scenario that you >> have in mind? > > MELPA primarily advertises the non-stable channel, that creates a new > package version for commit in a package repository (like ELPA devel). > > The problems that arise from this is that different users receive more > or less random snapshots, which is especially critical when packages > depend on one another, updating packages involves a lot more "luck" than > should be necessary. I think the argument has been insinuated in this > thread, that this makes it easier to catch bugs early, but I don't think > every user should have to deal with that (after all, any freedom, > including software freedom, should also include the freedom to say > "no"). And setting that aside, package.el doesn't provide a good basis > for development and contributing -- if you want to do more than > debugging or changing something that should be more persistent, you'll > have to clone the source manually. > > Two issues specific to MELPA is that a lot of "stable" packages depend > on "unstable" packages, that might have not received a stable release, > or marked as such (MELPA requires manual tagging of releases using git > tags), so that some packages just do not release stable versions at all, > splitting the repository. The second issue is that MELPA (unstable) > generates version tags directly from the commit data, resulting in > versions like "20210721.2003". ELPA devel handles this better by > appending the date to the actual version: "0.9.13.0.20210721.211455" > (both of these version tags were taken from the company package). This > makes switching between repositories easer to handle. > > For most users, there is simply no reason to deal with the devel > repository. And speaking from experience, when someone starts dealing > with Emacs, they are very likely to just copy random code off blogs and > fora until something appears to work. Having development versions of > ELPA advertised with ready-to-copy code will just break stuff. I guess > mentioning it doesn't inherently pose an issue. Either way, the reason > I am interested in seeing GNU and NonGNU ELPA is that this incentives > stable package releases as the default mode of operation, so that is > where I am coming from with this line of argumentation. +1 To be clear, the only reason I want to use ELPA devel is for a pre-release test of a new version of ada-mode, without disturbing the release version. The version I push to ELPA devel from upstream has passed all my tests, I just want some users to test it. The documentation of how to access ELPA devel should make clear that this (or something similar) is the prefered use. -- -- Stephe