From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Evans Winner Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:21:31 -0600 Message-ID: <86ej9ztrno.fsf@timbral.net> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <87zlsouef7.fsf@stupidchicken.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206415767 19115 80.91.229.12 (25 Mar 2008 03:29:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 03:29:27 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 25 04:29:57 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JdzrI-0004IO-L4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:29:57 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jdzqh-0006p3-Fn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:29:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jdzqc-0006mg-BC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:29:14 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdzqY-0006hB-CD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:29:12 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdzqY-0006h3-8t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:29:10 -0400 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JdzqX-0005Mi-Cm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:29:10 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JdzqV-0008WI-8o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 03:29:07 +0000 Original-Received: from 67.42.142.120 ([67.42.142.120]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 03:29:07 +0000 Original-Received: from thorne by 67.42.142.120 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 03:29:07 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 59 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.42.142.120 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:LnUli0ADFcIQg9yFIuMqDSXSTx8= X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93386 Archived-At: Since my earlier post has been referenced in this thread I thought I should clarify a couple of things: Though I don't personally use it anymore, I do not have the expertise to make a suggestion on this list about the specific merits of transient-mark-mode, or whether it ought to be enabled by default. I merely wanted to mention a possible issue that might be worth considering in any such case -- that is, whether making something a default was liable to make it more difficult for new users to discover and learn to appreciate the specifically Emacs approach. Obviously there are apt to be reasonable disagreements about what the specific nature of that approach is, even among expert users and developers. There is nothing wrong with that. I think it might be relevant to point out that, though I have no data to support the notion, there are few ``beginner users'' of Emacs these days in the sense that there might have been some years ago. That is, most beginners are not beginning to learn to use a text editor and that editor is Emacs -- but rather most, I imagine, are refugees from various other systems and tools and come to Emacs with a great deal of ``baggage'' from those other contexts. When we are talking about making things easier for the beginner -- which is a reasonable goal on the face of it -- it might be important to differentiate between that, and making things easier for those who have learned to use other systems, and have expectations based on that. Because if we are talking about the later, then a question becomes: To what degree should Emacs be made to resemble other, and (most of us would agree) in most respects inferior systems for the sake of those beginners who would be surprised by the differences?--and who is really being helped by such changes? There are countless free text editors out there and most of them do the wrong thing, or perhaps even could be said to do something like the right thing for the many people for whom their text editor is not a tool of major importance in their life work. But Emacs is at least one of the few that still really caters to the people who want a powerful tool, even at the /inevitable/ expense of having to spend some time learning how to use it. Emacs is, as someone pointed out, not in danger of becoming a new version of gedit; it could be in danger of becoming a huge, crufty, inefficient version of gedit, with gobs of code that no one cares about or maintains that implements features no one uses anymore because the /culture/ of the Emacs approach no longer exists or interests those who can happily and obliviously go on living with the inefficient habits they've learned from notepad.exe. If one is truly concerned with helping new users, then the so-called ``primacy effect'' is the principle to be concerned with -- the principle that people learn most thoroughly that which they are first exposed to; and that unlearning the wrong thing is much harder than learning the right thing in the first place.