From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: An anonymous IRC user's opinion Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2024 15:47:03 +0200 Message-ID: <86cyj9u71k.fsf@gnu.org> References: <343c4d04-af53-4da2-9d1c-c616c74821e1@gutov.dev> <86plo8369c.fsf@gnu.org> <63edeeea-1f24-4d3b-abc8-b96b164942e4@gutov.dev> <8634l1zsej.fsf@gnu.org> <9a8b97f8-def3-43ce-b71b-1f09bb05afd4@gutov.dev> <86cyk4vcld.fsf@gnu.org> <86ttdgthg2.fsf@gnu.org> <86ed4kt2ws.fsf@gnu.org> <8e30fb5c-8e1b-4f73-98eb-50c5c396efb0@gutov.dev> <86ldyqsrax.fsf@gnu.org> <10864c02-4bfd-41c3-bb45-6fe1155f9676@gutov.dev> <867ca9shcw.fsf@gnu.org> <7cb15f5c-efd0-4516-8190-a53c0d958eb6@gutov.dev> <86ses8x1po.fsf@gnu.org> <865xp3w64u.fsf@gnu.org> <61171da3-7428-4572-bc13-783766a123b5@gutov.dev> <86v7x2u7rz.fsf@gnu.org> <877c9hizof.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8004"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, johan.myreen@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 05 14:47:52 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1t8JuR-0001uz-8P for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2024 14:47:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t8Jtp-00059R-V4; Tue, 05 Nov 2024 08:47:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t8Jtk-00058R-Ia for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2024 08:47:08 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t8Jtj-0000rh-NW; Tue, 05 Nov 2024 08:47:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=SZefNQ3vqA+WBRPp2ehX5JnZ8RKkqjg3zB7LVRPeRaE=; b=Qw5heaP/1nKr6y5C64+/ rnNA9iU+BurbtWS/UkSPkFXCOd+3eiPLTtmEg8C5MyFGRdeBwxeBF0NgRnU0U8h6102tWiN/6K5yW 3SEaJ1D6+GtglPf54gWXR9ENcBu9vyEBXxw7kOvj1qt2AG2m0r/83TNA9oou3qiFNUnaNOjdk48PC QcG4tcLBk9pZYwX5m4G0cqKbw+a/bcvKQ/CNgr21M16MBf+BmjeAvAyOWsYrHqwH7WtRnjnQSEcAa M3bbYKZwZ3J5BTdZZegmgIQs4DWeEFDZGHRx5T+z25j0BWWs68uEKvZrmXInJxh612/8xCG3NHA2g /zdUs4Gy88YYug==; In-Reply-To: <877c9hizof.fsf@web.de> (arne_bab@web.de) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325140 Archived-At: > From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" > Cc: Dmitry Gutov , johan.myreen@gmail.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2024 14:21:36 +0100 > > Though I think the disagreement hints that there’s something more > general that’s not as good as it could be: discoverability. Discoverability doesn't mean the things need to be in my face. It means they are easy to discover _when_I_need_them_. Nothing else will work well in a package such as Emacs with thousands of features. In order to be able to discover stuff in Emacs, I need at least to know what I'm looking for. I need to know to ask the questions. If I know to ask the right questions and use the right words, then the built-in documentation has several commands which will make discoverability easy. (If they don't, please report specific bugs.) But if I don't even know to ask the questions, I need to try, or to guess, or to use some clever search engine, or just wait for that TIL day to come. > For keybindings, which-key-mode mostly solves that for me. which-key-mode will not help you discover key bindings of packages you haven't loaded into your session. So various optional features that define useful key bindings will not be discoverable that way. For example, if you type "C-c", which-key-mode will not tell you about key bindings of, say, Outline mode, unless that mode is already activated. > But I don’t know a way to finding that there’s a feature that could > help me isn’t better. Emacs has several Help commands specifically designed to ease discoverability. Take a look at the beginning of the Help chapter in the Emacs user manual, where these facilities are described.