From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 14:07:22 +0200 Message-ID: <86bjy7o4jp.fsf@gnu.org> References: <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> <86ldxbofgw.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37215"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Madhu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 22 13:08:25 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tESSW-0009Vd-I7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 13:08:24 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tESRk-0005pb-Aq; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 07:07:37 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tESRe-0005ou-US for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 07:07:31 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tESRe-00086f-2I; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 07:07:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=usYwjWh+dBUQJ2XwnFgmvvuqGDBuHIwuIFZ7YlpmZcA=; b=FbsJJtOLJxMP jvw3nttne+Cdy/fwL+u03JOlJPqQYDKfuYP+ZAiG43Tb4vW3+eRSpkbBvn3WFTusUCEViAI0v1E3K QZFDXibet5YDrDIanKRf7+pHtr1cT0oH4F8d/UdIIWxk5tfwFhkQhCa/VMOIsKzvdc8aFxcsOucX0 5A3ozfCem1vV7oSYej10vOsolQF2QC0paAvvpc9LoV1xmmguJeVO4RyG4uTgYwC/xc1F9/dUxQbQ1 SQHWPmmDTNdv3iCm6Tw4vVrFVG0K51+21SK9mDrTG7xhAcFYdL/SrMV9uxUVEexUN6/IVsbNp6yVL GSCq5RyI0zE9wl1//ICz+Q==; In-Reply-To: (message from Madhu on Fri, 22 Nov 2024 14:56:39 +0530) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325585 Archived-At: > From: Madhu > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 14:56:39 +0530 > > > * Eli Zaretskii <86ldxbofgw.fsf@gnu.org> : > Wrote on Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:11:27 +0200: > > So no, we are not "gerrymandering", and the reason we don't even > > consider "reigning in" Stefan is because we see absolutely no problems > > with his conduct, certainly no malice. And while it is easy to > > bad-mouth our ways of leading the project "from the fences" by people > > who are not really involved with the day in and day out hard work on > > helping this community move forward, and never contributed anything > > significant to that movement, the truth is very far from these claims. > > You and Alfred, and even Po Lu, are well advised to tone down your > > claims, and exercise much more humility when you post such vicious > > personal attacks on Stefan and others. > > I offer the criticism in good faith, not out of any malice for Stefan > but because I see the direction as being detrimental for the original > goals of the project. I was responding to your criticism of the Emacs maintainers. You expect us to "reign in" Stefan based on your assessment of his actions, and accuse us of "gerrymandering" because we don't. If your criticism of Stefan is in good faith, then please limit it to the changes that Stefan installs and the developments he leads. If we agree with your criticism, we will certainly act on it. But as long as we the maintainers disagree with your assessment of Stefan's activities, you cannot expect us to act against them, and have no right to reprimand us for not taking those actions. > (Mis)Characterising criticisms as vicious personal attacks No such mis-characterization was present in what I wrote. > and doubling on the claims and refuse to acknowledge the valid > criticism Your criticism was indeed valid, but there's no obligation for us to agree with it. > I understand your "advice" as a threat that further criticism will > be cancelled and not dealt with. There were no threats, none at all. Any criticism is taken seriously and is considered. But again, don't expect us to agree with everything you (or anyone else) says. And I would expect you to tone down your claims because you are not involved in Emacs maintenance, and so lack both the broad perspective and the detailed information about what is going on and how decisions are being made. That doesn't mean you cannot ask tough questions and offer radically different perspectives on these issues, but please choose words carefully on the assumption that you might not know enough to pass definitive judgments.