From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Newbie Info Pages Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 16:31:00 +0300 Message-ID: <86a5g6be5n.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87r09owat8.fsf@gmail.com> <289AFFBC-16A4-4728-B702-D99045B6D7FF@summerstar.me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35370"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, suhailsingh247@gmail.com, corwin@bru.st, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Summer Emacs Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 17 15:32:06 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sqYJK-00090M-00 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 15:32:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqYIa-0000Zg-AH; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 09:31:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqYIX-0000XW-Bf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 09:31:17 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqYIW-0001wT-G6; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 09:31:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=MaZjxo68r1axU8YduCpiRhAkvtKHI5JKteoeg54r97g=; b=ZkiU2GW15VVW0iaos6fQ P3/qTcPuG1W743CD9NlSNsTxWtNv0rIAz+wRnBZ0uSDbHLjMJdGbxINBNGQAVWkCr2OpYoW4Rp2sT QKYCv3TyPA7wlMSrIJ3SeAwqQ4rIl60NEEWz17rzQ1+4YlRlElYCWzqLIFrkOzUDUPXtP1a7HcI7T CVxXT84PabfKcHEuaZGjzowdlFZZQ6Kemd4KjK1tAHPrCtMgxkFLp1/106AcZZYZEwfRuQMHjnR/k vtH0N4VFn/FIloBGUNmrU66Imu1Xpr5BxQARWLvoQZ572tbiNTRdp55oqvJw/oyicVRaNYn0E0YfX cw0SKuZ9lU39jQ==; In-Reply-To: <289AFFBC-16A4-4728-B702-D99045B6D7FF@summerstar.me> (message from Summer Emacs on Tue, 17 Sep 2024 12:58:21 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323695 Archived-At: > From: Summer Emacs > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 12:58:21 +0200 > Cc: Suhail Singh , corwin@bru.st, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > How does this proposed Info manual compare with the C-h t Emacs > > tutorial? If they are doing different jobs, how do they differ? > > Good questions! Thank you. > > 1) My proposal is for new people to have a landing set of pages to click through, explaining things in a clear and easy way for them to understand without the instant introduction of concepts which are alien to them. I think the help files are a great thing, but they are overwhelming for new people. I know this because I’ve shown it to people in my circles who don’t know much of anything about how to use a computer, but still use applications such as Word or Pages to type up things for work/classes. They couldn’t understand the first thing about the help pages. I think Richard asked about the difference between what you propose and the existing Emacs tutorial (which can be read by typing "C-h t"). The tutorial is not what you call "help files", and is written in a different style and with different goals in mind. Or are you saying that the tutorial is also overwhelming, in particular due to introducing too many alien concepts? If so, that might be worth a separate discussion, because the tutorial is not supposed to be hard to read and understand.