From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Scrollbar bug on OS X Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:59:23 +0100 Message-ID: <86583cd4c0fa9cf9e4a562be66bb3a55@gmail.com> References: <7ca1709813602da58a139cee58fb4c63@gmail.com> <3b9c4e2f33d37fed55f640dcafbc8d65@gmail.com> <87is31i8jq.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> <0ba853825b580f74347416c2c0b4a169@gmail.com> <87vf70ausz.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> <5b72982df8c370d3a58358de397046c8@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1112904454 7973 80.91.229.2 (7 Apr 2005 20:07:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:07:34 +0000 (UTC) Cc: miles@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier , snogglethorpe@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 07 22:07:31 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DJdGm-0002jP-0J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 22:06:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DJciA-0005uQ-Ep for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:30:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DJchC-0005gv-Ha for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:29:43 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DJch7-0005e8-7L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:29:38 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DJch7-0005e2-4Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:29:37 -0400 Original-Received: from [64.233.184.201] (helo=wproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DJdAg-0001da-5l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:00:10 -0400 Original-Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 50so777375wri for ; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:59:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=ZLko9ieNldpkLdqL/ckz/Dr0QRCDchE2JSyfVcHmiuF5OIa+U2KUo5Zd/KilTX6ReBFve+GDhkOsdpl4dJuiBBk9CMLB3JXZhaMKmU53t6JdEr8mb5XiJw4f01x3VqBv2+iA5pxEJj/+sQqrmYANCkNB9nw3WSyKZzfwlo2Wv/4= Original-Received: by 10.54.24.49 with SMTP id 49mr2076718wrx; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?129.215.110.120? ([129.215.110.120]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 9sm926186wrl.2005.04.07.12.59.25; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:59:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Original-To: David Kastrup X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:35711 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:35711 On 7 Apr 2005, at 20:30, David Kastrup wrote: > Stefan Monnier writes: > >>> PS: The only problem is that those toolkits have the idiotic >>> idea to enforce that the bottom of the thumb cannot go further >>> than the bottom. And they enforce it by hiding the events >>> corresponding to "user moves the mouse yet-further-down". >> >>> I can talk with the GTK developers about this. And also with the >>> LessTif developers. Should I do that? >> >> Feel free to try, but I don't have much hope: >> - The LessTif people are probably bound by compatibility. >> - The Gtk people are usually bound by dogmatism. > > Didn't Miles in the context of "David would welcome Athena semantics > even with fancy-looking scrollbars" mention that it would be possible > to process the scrollbar events without even passing them into the > scrollbar widgets in the first place? I understand something like that is happening in the mac port, which makes it very hard to get decent behavior in the first place. Users exert their freedom to chose a particular UI environment. GTK can be seen as part of an environment, as it creates compatible behavior across applications. As mentioned earlier in this thread, UI is more than the pretty visual image of a widget - it's the behavior that counts. Consistency is extremely important. While I respectfully disagree with Stefan's view that it is an "idiotic idea" to not let the 'thumb' extend beyond the bottom of the scrollbar, and while I think that this commonly used scrollbar behavior is actually consistent with the document/window metaphor put forward in most modern windowing environments since the mid-80's (which implies no over-scrolling), I think that a discussion about what the right behavior is is not necessary at all. Instead, suffice it to say that it should be up to the UI layer to implement the exact behavior. That would respect the user's choice of environment (provided GTK implements things correctly.)