From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Ahmed Khanzada Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:05:58 -0700 Message-ID: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="113844"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/28.0 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Cc: rms@gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams , ndame@protonmail.com To: Joseph Garvin Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Apr 18 00:13:31 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jPZEp-000TUf-Dn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 00:13:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52520 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jPZEo-00044B-7d for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:13:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41324) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jPZCk-0002fs-Gl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:11:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jPZCj-0001yv-Ae for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:11:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x444.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::444]:41673) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jPZCi-0001vl-VQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:11:21 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x444.google.com with SMTP id b8so1689519pfp.8 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:11:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=enzu-ru.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=gpEfcj9pGi5HQrAuhHoQJyJ6PRcru8D4URaQVRIHGUo=; b=qGOip04w3ma66ttogk+CpHFJ1XzdIFNCMQdkSZz7HqxTRIsH6o6OeTQixmeHgbu/eW Ovr39yQJUMjMOsTzh2VwF/NrWrfrJgepwGxWiLL5o2/1eLQZ/4OT92nnByKCFB16PzuX E5Rfe0/33u+WWH1QNeqlvSQUUzwn6BGVwuUtLRWAmc2qDUS9BZWr8zfm5GHsdSSu1W66 jOmgksaLYlmZ4XYUq40xMeqkwY3rCNfzG+YHzR8i3/E3+9s/WHSw/32dg+MEVHR4x2ez IQSR9w67Mtp/nP4Hv1190Gb34+YuUIM+8c/pY0XAZn5GmEgSa1fddTKteZR045wRnrhU DZtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=gpEfcj9pGi5HQrAuhHoQJyJ6PRcru8D4URaQVRIHGUo=; b=kg3EUaKMdi4xIo9IKJSyERRq4UnnOR2xf2ESQrXB17ogxj+Kp3hQZ5IWCUUWKSoGYq k7O5bDQ+xgQj/25aJ8yWviyGN5DCQJWRoti5Fy8MtAoXg2mSlDbhf8fdjNFoHh5FOn/B F4Bjp4pZkO073PovVPtg+09ggqzCw9EI+SUlo2+QQe4Nj5mZ+VzwdC2Zr0ESboxxMOG7 WNK0Ex0BqF50lvvYB2fHU2xMvQEZEkC2NnWiS4B185/9pIkpYK8diu0y5gyYBfAu5Eyr YwkTBx0ltwxcakTI4cb/45Q/uFMp+/To0c5f8LWNA35ZqZk0OCdWu3rlVUs57MtGUa2I jvyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZeRfnQlAjTSSDaMKuI4E5e5QPeBIdwOKidgeHe4VYy5L+EHprV NKY8I8AxjMinRSv7yyQVDigBcA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIR1YBZn6Kfc1DIbz+ubUlAjCDS4dwqIBrpAH5wcprdcODPapJaCxxYtYyGmEdfJb+qPYxbRQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5d60:: with SMTP id o32mr5092522pgm.172.1587161479175; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost.localdomain.enzu.ru (cpe-23-240-236-225.socal.res.rr.com. [23.240.236.225]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j26sm8755627pgm.20.2020.04.17.15.11.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:11:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::444 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247204 Archived-At: Joseph, a few things come to mind from reading your email: 1. Terminal-based Vim is not like a modern application, yet is more popular than Emacs. 2. The audience for Emacs are people interested in using free software and Lisp to extend their text editing experience. Very few of these will be "casual editors", and in fact the FSF provides libre casual editing software through the GNOME project. 3. If Emacs was to become a "modern" app tomorrow, an editor extended in Lisp still only has appeal for a minority of programmers, much like the Lisp language itself. Most programmers looking for easy and modern experiences will likely stick with Atom and Sublime. 4. Most of the push for a "modern look" comes from the desire for Emacs to play more nicely with proprietary platforms. Rather, the goal of Emacs is to support platforms like GNU/Linux. Platforms that respect your freedom, and also do not push a corporate UI/UX vision of "modernity". (Perhaps if we do move forward with modernization, we should think of modernization in the context of something like GNOME rather than MacOS or Windows. Surely Emacs could be a better citizen of GNOME.) 5. Given that many of the people complaining about how Emacs looks are not submitting patches to fix the problem themselves, resources would be diverted from actual functionality to "modernity". 6. By the time we do major code refactoring "modernizing" Emacs on the major proprietary platforms, what is "modern" has now once again changed, and our resources were put towards a project with a poor return on investment. Basically, I don't see a "modernizing" project playing out well. We will spend extensive time and energy on a moving target, and even if we succeed, our Lisp-based vision still has limited appeal. Additionally, I don't think "modernizing" Emacs advances the cause of free software, given that there are other more popular casual libre tools for text editing that individuals can use.