From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 16:48:17 +1000 Message-ID: <8635do4u9b.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87ilmlluxq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilmlluxq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h725olz1.fsf@gnus.org> <87zgfxn6lt.fsf@gnus.org> <87tu65k9ec.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r119lnsd.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtbxlnf1.fsf@gnus.org> <87czctk890.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a67xlm9v.fsf@gnus.org> <87k070g6l0.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22061"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.8.9; emacs 29.0.50 Cc: Lynn Winebarger , Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 22 09:23:55 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ1mt-0005Ub-4j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:23:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60098 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ1mr-0005rF-Te for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 03:23:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40758) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ1m4-0005BY-Vi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 03:23:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]:38799) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ1m3-0000An-9n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 03:23:04 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id s31-20020a17090a2f2200b001faaf9d92easo13049215pjd.3 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 00:23:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:date:subject:cc:to:from :user-agent:references:from:to:cc; bh=Gt55zzIDb55Dzbyz2/Ow6Jtbz3fU+FzyaE/SAq1PDZA=; b=P1Cfo4N3+vA4b+8fBukME4jhZ0vmYyObfcal/Fq8FWBEAvzp+LqPJqug+DPtJWz6HU 18FxkPodBu9XfChxAym3PUsagLw0U7aK4rSUZx3fxfZ2PcUVX2dcxM64LI+rMJK900IA iSYJPVuLwmfSjiyR65z+t+Y6DhtFdMjrhTfmxpfE5wmG9FNHAVYfkEF+MA+l/p7ySs4g c7Qy2LuvLOXP7oFw1rcqWXn62kv9L7jpezaE2PrJs786skOZCDkQEb9Bsd30Q681HBUJ 4f6TQRDHvNNEPwVxXnIDMzJTeBvlqF+RdQWuts3GGjq7QEp4ESh7mgzjhqyoHvS4DEnx fDwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:date:subject:cc:to:from :user-agent:references:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=Gt55zzIDb55Dzbyz2/Ow6Jtbz3fU+FzyaE/SAq1PDZA=; b=G6RvKsyq6bczGIkOUzshDjRYtFxAekd5UKmF7MvOieXYfs3bADuS5zR5J1CYvddZ9s T7FaAKTPj//DM+3iMPuRFXM+bZkv8jc7iSI75Jx7HWztblWFqQgz9OMULISF0G88nBKn gHk64xCUAYgvmpm3ia8CxDNWfYvOiq4pnzUjodRrXXkEufNKOCZqjipYk6MbJJrrLAuk apG83mEcETh3Av5h8DApCy9HB0U9as1wHGOMB2X4okWtQppPt2Q90JyDl3wAEJCBLt9y N+h9WBAYu53nX8v8i23b0FMGfuoAHfAiy4kcRRmIBY3Bkd4Z0xM6dqPpR5oZ7cEb1QTf m6Jw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo06+d2VCeP24VL4YsmsghRxVwj385uQvTLWN2plswnaoFX41g1A mdbj0WMj8MTIXAnM9CU4qdl4LET8akoSHg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR5JhBvg+lHJ/sJ9q9nF+obP6AgNCJ85NJZwE1OYAccifG0prLpvIvoBEjVweJRRCnEFeMnt0w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a38b:b0:170:c27c:b5f9 with SMTP id x11-20020a170902a38b00b00170c27cb5f9mr19309390pla.129.1661152980992; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 00:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from dingbat (2001-44b8-31f2-bb00-842a-7361-87c7-2662.static.ipv6.internode.on.net. [2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:842a:7361:87c7:2662]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z14-20020a1709027e8e00b00172ba718ed4sm6843580pla.138.2022.08.22.00.22.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 22 Aug 2022 00:23:00 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <87k070g6l0.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293777 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Lynn Winebarger writes: > >> As I only recently took up building emacs for myself again, I can tell >> you when I saw the choices for toolkit configuration, my reaction was >> (a) how is no toolkit a viable option, and (b) who is using a window >> manager based on the Motif or Lucid toolkits these days? > > For Motif, CDE (dtwm) and mwm users. As for Lucid, no one, because the > Lucid tookit is internal to Emacs. > > But to be fair, GNOME's window manager isn't based on GTK either, and > uses its own "Shell Toolkit". Like others in this thread, I don't use the menu-bar, toolbar, scroll-bars etc, so toolkit seems somewhat irrelevant (I have to do an M-x version to see which one I'm using!). I build using lucid as that seemed like a better choice than gtk and I use xfce rather than gnome as my desktop environment (and sometimes stumpwm). I think one of the defining features of the GNU Linux desktop is the wide variety and available choices wrt desktop environments. It really doesn't matter what toolkit your window manager users except with respect to the number of toolkits and libraries you have to install on your system. I suspect a part of the decision regarding which toolkit to build emacs with for various distros probably relates to minimising the number of toolkits to install. As Gnome seems to be the current 'default', gtk is already installed, so will likely be a preferred choice unless some other compelling reason is given. With Fedora now shipping with Wayland as default and the recent announcement regarding nvidia driver licensing and support for nvidia under wayland, I suspectg we will see a significant growth in distributions defaulting to wayland and wanting to reduce/remove dependency on X. One factor which will likely come into play if we changed the default toolkit is theming. I've noticed that in both the most recent releases of Ubuntu and Fedora, a lot of reviews and comments centred around improved consistency in themes (especially consistency when switching between light/dark themes). With a lucid build, I expect you will need to setup X resources to match your theme. With the GTK build, it looks like it inherits from whatever you set your default theme to (for menus etc). Personally, I tend to define my theme and just leave it. I do use a dark theme and after many years, I have a good default Xresources, so not a big issue for me (with the exception of some qt based apps). However, for a generation brought up using Gnome, the whole xrdb stuff is likely to be challenging/frustrating. I assume similar issues will exist for the no toolket default. I don't think this is sufficient reason not to change the default to (lets say) lucid - just mention it as I suspect it will cause some disruption/frustration. There also seems to be a lot of bad information about using/setting Xresources out there, which might add to the confusion.