From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel [was My resignation from Emacs development] Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2024 08:12:31 +0200 Message-ID: <8634j86ieo.fsf@gnu.org> References: <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> <86a5dg7iut.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9082"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, adam@alphapapa.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 01 07:13:30 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tHdD0-0002Eg-74 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2024 07:13:30 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tHdCG-00041Y-CM; Sun, 01 Dec 2024 01:12:44 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tHdCF-00041Q-2j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2024 01:12:43 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tHdCE-0000fz-64; Sun, 01 Dec 2024 01:12:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=VwpU4nNQDZoE3RXPskEF4rGTcX2wQ2WWkKRxveuFuJo=; b=J8bDxuNiAm1n q6H/F9cblpSLrKcNI+0txWHqXuPMsmrqRPdtLxXeAg3sNWZU7mD853KNefAOxMjCjogxKwTzIfNx6 Tp8zRSTJ7wWVWI0mG+zwHjCJSLlMiR2k+7UkXze6HLMZm8IKoeOS+TEMHelhzjJZPppswhFpaQp/A 4LZogxVdDp6+mFpi/rqWXkdszw8eWq4MWxylFxrv2LBwd1+CwL+q7S0lgagoqbrFgrhD6te9uHc0N 2MHoCBIKb76/xOs1n6HIsV4EbpwneoJKm4+yJCOe2VojhJKFqbyF0M9y3oUarvBOP5ZkRkoEl7w2I A2XQ9Nq7J9WtvtZCIZxIew==; In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:09:21 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325900 Archived-At: > From: Drew Adams > CC: "rms@gnu.org" , "adam@alphapapa.net" , > "emacs-devel@gnu.org" > Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:09:21 +0000 > > > > In bug thread 73853 I wrote this about it: > > > > > > I don't understand why language-design discussions, > > > even major ones sometimes, are carried out in > > > debbugs and not always in emacs-devel@gnu.org. > > > > Bug#73853 was not about language-design decisions, it was about > > deprecating a macro. > > The bug might not have been about language-design, > but some of the bug thread was - which is the point > here. That people participating in a discussion bring up arguments based on language design doesn't necessarily (and generally shouldn't) make the discussion to be about language design. Language design is a tangent in a discussion about deprecating a macro. > My post that I quoted (above) was a +1 support for > a post from Jonas Bernoulli which was largely about > the same point being discussed here, now. E.g.: > > This could have been prevented if more people > (including non-debbugs and non-emacs-devel regulars) > were given a chance to think about the problem > and time to articulate their concerns and proposals, > before facts were created. Or even if the people > who did take part in past conversations had spend > more time actually talking things through. The quality and efficiency of a discussion don't necessarily improve by asking more people to participate. The main consideration for having discussions on emacs-devel rather than elsewhere is because we think we have the moral obligation to make it known to more people, even if this makes the discussion much less effective, as it many times does. Thus, claiming that opening a discussion will necessarily make the decisions better is basically missing the point. Also, you were part of the discussion from its very beginning, but never objected to the changes, until Jonas chimed in, much later. > > And you were part of that discussion since its > > beginning. > > Once again, it's not about me. You are one example of people who keep criticizing our decision-making process, so looking into your participation in that case is very relevant.