From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: as for Calc and the math library Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 10:02:11 +0300 Message-ID: <861q2q8e18.fsf@gnu.org> References: <864j7qhup6.fsf@gnu.org> <87a5hi0yts.fsf@valhala.localdomain> <86y152ge0b.fsf@gnu.org> <86jzgjfwqp.fsf@gnu.org> <87sev78arx.fsf@gmail.com> <86le0z89u1.fsf@gnu.org> <87o75v87n1.fsf@gmail.com> <86frr786k7.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25388"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: suhailsingh247@gmail.com, gerd.moellmann@gmail.com, nicolas@n16f.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: arthur miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 15 09:03:19 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1seUVz-0006R4-ED for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2024 09:03:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1seUV6-0005ZL-72; Thu, 15 Aug 2024 03:02:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1seUV3-0005Z0-FK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2024 03:02:21 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1seUUy-0000fK-OF; Thu, 15 Aug 2024 03:02:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Psve1MZgXPYMaYrk+T3/z6P1fiAZkBNUp/6f1qXNhLg=; b=PcTvDTNjfuru aYIjTfVlKdOeJwJUWqk+ufMQViHvmVGLJrXP4sBFPxMU5EbSJxDgzPPiPDTbVYdSCJRo7hw7JNzU3 doWBlmNzwnlPvN7f1SQjA8odd05VwBt+BNarTzFiDN1oyKwxrUk8uS6Si7qcHLxM09D9GpOudV1Ye ybD6SSc3igSKd7aiT/TSVJSgSNeNAKKfifKvRVoeF6cXRIeOVCQWkqzzryCqtySbauZDoOegQAzf4 cChJ6yPn0eKTnxH6YZWOPcFiQzPrNmQPROYwNTsKZCqqQrVDmeAR9EFFayxNLM87D1ymRMPbVF49C rVuO9FAlo16YYtZiPZTYgQ==; In-Reply-To: (message from arthur miller on Thu, 15 Aug 2024 05:00:06 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322767 Archived-At: > From: arthur miller > CC: "gerd.moellmann@gmail.com" , "nicolas@n16f.net" > , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" > Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 05:00:06 +0000 > > > > Specifically, modify the `define-ffi-library' macro that emacs-ffi > > > provides. > > > > > > Presently, it takes two arguments: a SYMBOL and a NAME. I am proposing > > > that it be updated to take three arguments: a SYMBOL, a NAME and a > > > GPL-COMPATIBLE-P token. A value of `t' would be necessary for creating > > > a reference to the library. > > > > And if the value is not t, then the load will fail? If so, then this > > additional argument makes very little sense: you could instead say > > It makes as much sense as it makes in C library. The token is basically an > agreement between Emacs developers and the user not to load (link) closed > source libraries into Emacs. No. What we need is the declaration _by_the_library_ being loaded that it complies. It is not an agreement between Emacs and the library, it's a _requirement_ on our part that only the library itself can fulfill. > > that just by loading the library, the Lisp program which uses > > emacs-ffi "declares" the loaded library to be GPL-compatible. And we > > are back where we began. > > Yes, you could. It would just completely remove the barrier. However, > the token is an explicit acknowledgment of Emacs policy and license terms, by > the person who loads the library into Emacs. No, see above. > > The way we do it when loading modules requires the _loaded_ library to > > declare itself compatible, by exporting a symbol of a certain name. > > That is an action by the library we load, not by the Lisp program > > which loads it. > > True. But as you said yourself, a malicious user can easily cicrumvent it, even > in C and there is nothing we can do to prevent them other than possibly taking > legal actions against them. Malicious agents can do all kinds of bad and even unlawful things, but we are not under any obligations to cater to them. They can always change the Emacs source code to do whatever they like, but why do you expect _us_ to do it for them, or make it easier for them to do it? > If some company or a state would use Emacs or any other GNU program, as a > front-end to closed-source software, there is very little one can do > technically. It is only the license and the agreement that actually protects it. That's a separate issue, although it could be related. What is at stake here is the fact that we don't want to encourage use of Emacs as such a front-end. That policy of the project is not new, it has many different expressions, as already mentioned in this thread. We don't mention non-free software or fonts in our documentation, we don't install changes that specifically favor or are designed to support non-free programs, we don't link against non-free libraries except if they are system libraries, we don't install functionality enhancements on non-free systems if there's no equivalent on free systems, etc. etc. So I wonder what is this particular fuss all about. Its only effect is to waste maintainers' time and energy on replying to these posts, and I very much doubt this was the intent. So could we please stop this Nth instance of the same discussions? I cannot change the project policies even if I wanted, because I promised to uphold them when Richard nominated me.