* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
[not found] ` <87mz0y8vyk.fsf@zip.com.au>
@ 2007-04-25 14:51 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-25 17:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2007-04-26 4:11 ` Glenn Morris
0 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-04-25 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kevin Ryde; +Cc: emacs-devel
What do people think of this method of fixing the problem?
It will allow moving certain patterns from `magic-mode-alist'
to `file-start-mode-alist', but only those we need to move.
*** files.el 23 Apr 2007 17:14:10 -0400 1.896
--- files.el 24 Apr 2007 23:47:25 -0400
***************
*** 2151,2158 ****
\"allow `auto-mode-alist' to decide for these files.\")")
(put 'magic-mode-alist 'risky-local-variable t)
(defvar magic-mode-regexp-match-limit 4000
! "Upper limit on `magic-mode-alist' regexp matches.")
(defun set-auto-mode (&optional keep-mode-if-same)
"Select major mode appropriate for current buffer.
--- 2151,2171 ----
\"allow `auto-mode-alist' to decide for these files.\")")
(put 'magic-mode-alist 'risky-local-variable t)
+ (defvar file-start-mode-alist
+ nil
+ "Like `magic-mode-alist' but has lower priority than `auto-mode-alist'.
+ Each element looks like (REGEXP . FUNCTION) or (MATCH-FUNCTION . FUNCTION).
+ After visiting a file, if REGEXP matches the text at the beginning of the
+ buffer, or calling MATCH-FUNCTION returns non-nil, `normal-mode' will
+ call FUNCTION, provided that `magic-mode-alist' and `auto-mode-alist'
+ have not specified a mode for this file.
+
+ If FUNCTION is nil, then it is not called.")
+ (put 'file-start-mode-alist 'risky-local-variable t)
+
(defvar magic-mode-regexp-match-limit 4000
! "Upper limit on `magic-mode-alist' regexp matches.
! Also applies to `file-start-mode-alist'.")
(defun set-auto-mode (&optional keep-mode-if-same)
"Select major mode appropriate for current buffer.
***************
*** 2207,2216 ****
(or (set-auto-mode-0 mode keep-mode-if-same)
;; continuing would call minor modes again, toggling them off
(throw 'nop nil))))))
(unless done
- ;; If we didn't, look for an interpreter specified in the first line.
- ;; As a special case, allow for things like "#!/bin/env perl", which
- ;; finds the interpreter anywhere in $PATH.
(setq mode (save-excursion
(goto-char (point-min))
(if (looking-at auto-mode-interpreter-regexp)
--- 2220,2229 ----
(or (set-auto-mode-0 mode keep-mode-if-same)
;; continuing would call minor modes again, toggling them off
(throw 'nop nil))))))
+ ;; If we didn't, look for an interpreter specified in the first line.
+ ;; As a special case, allow for things like "#!/bin/env perl", which
+ ;; finds the interpreter anywhere in $PATH.
(unless done
(setq mode (save-excursion
(goto-char (point-min))
(if (looking-at auto-mode-interpreter-regexp)
***************
*** 2223,2229 ****
;; If we found an interpreter mode to use, invoke it now.
(if done
(set-auto-mode-0 (cdr done) keep-mode-if-same)))
! ;; If we didn't, match the buffer beginning against magic-mode-alist.
(unless done
(if (setq done (save-excursion
(goto-char (point-min))
--- 2236,2242 ----
;; If we found an interpreter mode to use, invoke it now.
(if done
(set-auto-mode-0 (cdr done) keep-mode-if-same)))
! ;; Next try matching the buffer beginning against magic-mode-alist.
(unless done
(if (setq done (save-excursion
(goto-char (point-min))
***************
*** 2236,2274 ****
(if (functionp re)
(funcall re)
(looking-at re)))))))
! (set-auto-mode-0 done keep-mode-if-same)
! ;; Compare the filename against the entries in auto-mode-alist.
! (if buffer-file-name
! (let ((name buffer-file-name))
! ;; Remove backup-suffixes from file name.
! (setq name (file-name-sans-versions name))
! (while name
! ;; Find first matching alist entry.
! (setq mode
! (if (memq system-type '(vax-vms windows-nt cygwin))
! ;; System is case-insensitive.
! (let ((case-fold-search t))
! (assoc-default name auto-mode-alist
! 'string-match))
! ;; System is case-sensitive.
! (or
! ;; First match case-sensitively.
! (let ((case-fold-search nil))
! (assoc-default name auto-mode-alist
! 'string-match))
! ;; Fallback to case-insensitive match.
! (and auto-mode-case-fold
! (let ((case-fold-search t))
! (assoc-default name auto-mode-alist
! 'string-match))))))
! (if (and mode
! (consp mode)
! (cadr mode))
! (setq mode (car mode)
! name (substring name 0 (match-beginning 0)))
! (setq name))
! (when mode
! (set-auto-mode-0 mode keep-mode-if-same)))))))))
;; When `keep-mode-if-same' is set, we are working on behalf of
;; set-visited-file-name. In that case, if the major mode specified is the
--- 2249,2303 ----
(if (functionp re)
(funcall re)
(looking-at re)))))))
! (set-auto-mode-0 done keep-mode-if-same)))
! ;; Next compare the filename against the entries in auto-mode-alist.
! (unless done
! (if buffer-file-name
! (let ((name buffer-file-name))
! ;; Remove backup-suffixes from file name.
! (setq name (file-name-sans-versions name))
! (while name
! ;; Find first matching alist entry.
! (setq mode
! (if (memq system-type '(vax-vms windows-nt cygwin))
! ;; System is case-insensitive.
! (let ((case-fold-search t))
! (assoc-default name auto-mode-alist
! 'string-match))
! ;; System is case-sensitive.
! (or
! ;; First match case-sensitively.
! (let ((case-fold-search nil))
! (assoc-default name auto-mode-alist
! 'string-match))
! ;; Fallback to case-insensitive match.
! (and auto-mode-case-fold
! (let ((case-fold-search t))
! (assoc-default name auto-mode-alist
! 'string-match))))))
! (if (and mode
! (consp mode)
! (cadr mode))
! (setq mode (car mode)
! name (substring name 0 (match-beginning 0)))
! (setq name))
! (when mode
! (set-auto-mode-0 mode keep-mode-if-same)
! (setq done t))))))
! ;; Next try matching the buffer beginning against file-start-mode-alist.
! (unless done
! (if (setq done (save-excursion
! (goto-char (point-min))
! (save-restriction
! (narrow-to-region (point-min)
! (min (point-max)
! (+ (point-min) magic-mode-regexp-match-limit)))
! (assoc-default nil file-start-mode-alist
! (lambda (re dummy)
! (if (functionp re)
! (funcall re)
! (looking-at re)))))))
! (set-auto-mode-0 done keep-mode-if-same)))))
;; When `keep-mode-if-same' is set, we are working on behalf of
;; set-visited-file-name. In that case, if the major mode specified is the
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-25 14:51 ` html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight Richard Stallman
@ 2007-04-25 17:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2007-04-25 18:18 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-26 4:11 ` Glenn Morris
1 sibling, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-04-25 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms; +Cc: Kevin Ryde, emacs-devel
> What do people think of this method of fixing the problem?
> It will allow moving certain patterns from `magic-mode-alist'
> to `file-start-mode-alist', but only those we need to move.
Sounds good to me. I'd rather call it `magic-default-mode-alist, or
something like that (afer all, the match-function might look at some other
part than the "file start"), but it's really not important compared to the
need to reduce the priority of several of the entries from magic-mode-alist.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-25 17:36 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2007-04-25 18:18 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2007-04-25 18:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Kevin Ryde, rms, emacs-devel
Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> What do people think of this method of fixing the problem?
>> It will allow moving certain patterns from `magic-mode-alist'
>> to `file-start-mode-alist', but only those we need to move.
>
> Sounds good to me. I'd rather call it `magic-default-mode-alist, or
> something like that (afer all, the match-function might look at some other
> part than the "file start"), but it's really not important compared to the
> need to reduce the priority of several of the entries from magic-mode-alist.
I agree with Stefan here.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-25 14:51 ` html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight Richard Stallman
2007-04-25 17:36 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2007-04-26 4:11 ` Glenn Morris
2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Glenn Morris @ 2007-04-26 4:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms; +Cc: Kevin Ryde, emacs-devel
Richard Stallman wrote:
> What do people think of this method of fixing the problem? It will
> allow moving certain patterns from `magic-mode-alist' to
> `file-start-mode-alist', but only those we need to move.
I think if you install a ~150 line patch that affects how modes are
selected, another pretest will be needed.
"When will you make an end?"
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-26 4:11 ` Glenn Morris
@ 2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-27 6:22 ` David Kastrup
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-04-27 5:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: user42, emacs-devel
I think if you install a ~150 line patch that affects how modes are
selected, another pretest will be needed.
Please do not exaggerate. There are about 52 lines of code changes,
bu most of them are just indentation changes. Real changes are about
20 lines.
But I agree we should make one more pretest.
This problem really bothers people, so we should not leave it unfixed.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-25 17:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2007-04-25 18:18 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
@ 2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-04-27 5:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: user42, emacs-devel
> What do people think of this method of fixing the problem?
> It will allow moving certain patterns from `magic-mode-alist'
> to `file-start-mode-alist', but only those we need to move.
Sounds good to me.
Could you try using my patch
and doing that with it?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2007-04-27 6:22 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-27 13:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-04-27 10:27 ` Kim F. Storm
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-04-27 6:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms; +Cc: Glenn Morris, user42, emacs-devel
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> I think if you install a ~150 line patch that affects how modes are
> selected, another pretest will be needed.
>
> Please do not exaggerate. There are about 52 lines of code changes,
> bu most of them are just indentation changes. Real changes are about
> 20 lines.
>
> But I agree we should make one more pretest.
>
> This problem really bothers people, so we should not leave it unfixed.
Richard, Emacs contains _thousands_ of files and functions and modes.
Of _course_ some detail will _always_ bother somebody.
We are trying to roll a _release_ here. Doing changes in a central
area affecting all modes, in order to appease a small minority of
users having a problem with details of a single mode is WRONG, WRONG,
WRONG!!! in this phase of development.
We will _never_ _ever_ be able to release Emacs with this sort of
mixed-up priorities at work.
I am going to a conference today where I'll be presenting AUCTeX and
the "upcoming" Emacs 22 again, like I did for _several_ years. And I
will be doing the same for years to come, earning a laughing stock
life time award if the release process does not get a grip.
You may be basking in the illusion that this increases the quality of
the released Emacs. I severely doubt that. It just stops the
_qualified_ developers from making more important reports in order to
not hold up the release, and hope that the trickling of irrelevant
reports will at one point of time cease for long enough to let Emacs
22 escape from your hands and give it to the public.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-27 6:22 ` David Kastrup
@ 2007-04-27 10:27 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-04-27 11:14 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
` (2 more replies)
2007-04-27 11:17 ` html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight Leo
2007-04-27 19:51 ` Glenn Morris
3 siblings, 3 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Kim F. Storm @ 2007-04-27 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms; +Cc: Glenn Morris, user42, emacs-devel
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> I think if you install a ~150 line patch that affects how modes are
> selected, another pretest will be needed.
>
> Please do not exaggerate. There are about 52 lines of code changes,
> bu most of them are just indentation changes. Real changes are about
> 20 lines.
>
> But I agree we should make one more pretest.
>
> This problem really bothers people, so we should not leave it unfixed.
Richard, sorry for shouting, but how else can I make you listen:
WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
We are in pretest, and the _only_ reason for rolling the .99 pretest
was to be sure that the changes made since .98 didn't break anything,
so we could safely make the 22.1 release (after a few days).
Since, you have continued to install changes for new bugs, and as a
result we need a .100 pretest to be sure... Please stop now!!
Once we have rolled the .100 pretest (very soon I hope),
PLEASE DO NOT INSTALL _ANY_ PATCHES on the EMACS_22_BASE branch,
unless they are directly related to breakage caused by one of the
recent changes made before the .100 pretest.
--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 10:27 ` Kim F. Storm
@ 2007-04-27 11:14 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 11:41 ` David Kastrup
` (2 more replies)
2007-04-27 12:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-04-28 4:06 ` Richard Stallman
2 siblings, 3 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2007-04-27 11:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kim F. Storm; +Cc: Glenn Morris, user42, rms, emacs-devel
Kim F. Storm wrote:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> I think if you install a ~150 line patch that affects how modes are
>> selected, another pretest will be needed.
>>
>> Please do not exaggerate. There are about 52 lines of code changes,
>> bu most of them are just indentation changes. Real changes are about
>> 20 lines.
>>
>> But I agree we should make one more pretest.
>>
>> This problem really bothers people, so we should not leave it unfixed.
>
> Richard, sorry for shouting, but how else can I make you listen:
>
> WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
I beg to differ. The current situation is very inconvenient and
confusing sometimes when you open for example php files.
I can understand that this does not bother you at all as long as you do
not do something similar to that, but please have patience with us who
tries to make it possible to use Emacs for those kind of things too.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-27 6:22 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-27 10:27 ` Kim F. Storm
@ 2007-04-27 11:17 ` Leo
2007-04-27 19:51 ` Glenn Morris
3 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Leo @ 2007-04-27 11:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
----- Richard Stallman (2007-04-27) wrote:-----
> This problem really bothers people, so we should not leave it unfixed.
I as well as many other end users are bothered by the delay of the
release because we are dying to see the unicode2 branch merged and thus
save us a great deal of trouble. As you know, we are using a different
language system and Emacs 22 is not competent enough.
--
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com> (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 11:14 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
@ 2007-04-27 11:41 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-27 11:49 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 12:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-04-27 18:58 ` Edward O'Connor
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-04-27 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman (gmail)
Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel, user42, rms, Kim F. Storm
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
> Kim F. Storm wrote:
>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> I think if you install a ~150 line patch that affects how modes are
>>> selected, another pretest will be needed.
>>>
>>> Please do not exaggerate. There are about 52 lines of code changes,
>>> bu most of them are just indentation changes. Real changes are about
>>> 20 lines.
>>>
>>> But I agree we should make one more pretest.
>>>
>>> This problem really bothers people, so we should not leave it unfixed.
>>
>> Richard, sorry for shouting, but how else can I make you listen:
>>
>> WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
>
>
> I beg to differ. The current situation is very inconvenient and
> confusing sometimes when you open for example php files.
There have been five years to go about fixing this. NOW IS NOT THE
TIME!!!
> I can understand that this does not bother you at all as long as you
> do not do something similar to that, but please have patience with
> us who tries to make it possible to use Emacs for those kind of
> things too.
If we have patience for every user of any of the multitude of modes
for all combinations of every little problem, to the degree to let
them mess with variables affecting _all_ users at any point in the
release process, there will never be a release and _all_ users are
left out in the cold.
We are in the final release stage. Anything but last-minute
regressions or catastrophic failure is _not_ supposed to hold up the
release.
There will _always_ be fixes to apply, year after year, decade after
decade. We can't get every conceivable fix into every release.
Much more and worse problems will crop up after the release, and
dealing with them (which requires hearing about them) is _held_ _up_
indefinitely by never ever releasing Emacs to the public.
I am _very_ certain that the last few problems that have nonsensically
blocked the release for the fast few weeks will be _dwarfed_ by the
amounts of bugs that still remain. There is no _point_ in holding up
the release further. It _delays_ further development, further
bugfixes, alienates users and developers and makes Emacs a far _worse_
editor than it could be if it was released to people actually _using_
it heavy-duty, instead of keeping a small circle playing around with
buglets that are comparatively irrelevant for normal use and have easy
and understandable workarounds.
Instead we are _still_ forcing people to work with Emacs versions that
are 6 years old and _far_ _far_ buggier than anything we could have
released in the last few months or even years.
It is a bloody shame.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 11:41 ` David Kastrup
@ 2007-04-27 11:49 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 11:56 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2007-04-27 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel, user42, rms, Kim F. Storm
David Kastrup wrote:
> "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Kim F. Storm wrote:
>>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> I think if you install a ~150 line patch that affects how modes are
>>>> selected, another pretest will be needed.
>>>>
>>>> Please do not exaggerate. There are about 52 lines of code changes,
>>>> bu most of them are just indentation changes. Real changes are about
>>>> 20 lines.
>>>>
>>>> But I agree we should make one more pretest.
>>>>
>>>> This problem really bothers people, so we should not leave it unfixed.
>>> Richard, sorry for shouting, but how else can I make you listen:
>>>
>>> WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
>>
>> I beg to differ. The current situation is very inconvenient and
>> confusing sometimes when you open for example php files.
>
> There have been five years to go about fixing this. NOW IS NOT THE
> TIME!!!
If I do not misremember I have mentioned this problem before.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 11:49 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
@ 2007-04-27 11:56 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-27 12:03 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-04-27 11:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman (gmail)
Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel, user42, rms, Kim F. Storm
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
> David Kastrup wrote:
>> "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Kim F. Storm wrote:
>>>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I think if you install a ~150 line patch that affects how modes are
>>>>> selected, another pretest will be needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please do not exaggerate. There are about 52 lines of code changes,
>>>>> bu most of them are just indentation changes. Real changes are about
>>>>> 20 lines.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I agree we should make one more pretest.
>>>>>
>>>>> This problem really bothers people, so we should not leave it unfixed.
>>>> Richard, sorry for shouting, but how else can I make you listen:
>>>>
>>>> WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
>>>
>>> I beg to differ. The current situation is very inconvenient and
>>> confusing sometimes when you open for example php files.
>>
>> There have been five years to go about fixing this. NOW IS NOT THE
>> TIME!!!
>
> If I do not misremember I have mentioned this problem before.
So much the worse. Well, you did not manage to get it fixed for the
release. That's in line with a whole lot of other problems and
usability issues. Too bad.
What do people think we are about to release? "Emacs 22.1, the editor
without any bugs or problems, with no further improvements possible"?
Emacs is a _large_ system, for crying out loud. We won't get it
bug-free ever. The only thing that is supposed to hold up a release
is a _release-critical_ bug. Having mentioned some problem before
does not make it release-critical.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 11:56 ` David Kastrup
@ 2007-04-27 12:03 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 12:22 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2007-04-27 12:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel, user42, rms, Kim F. Storm
David Kastrup wrote:
>>>>>> This problem really bothers people, so we should not leave it unfixed.
>>>>> Richard, sorry for shouting, but how else can I make you listen:
>>>>>
>>>>> WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
>>>> I beg to differ. The current situation is very inconvenient and
>>>> confusing sometimes when you open for example php files.
>>> There have been five years to go about fixing this. NOW IS NOT THE
>>> TIME!!!
>> If I do not misremember I have mentioned this problem before.
>
> So much the worse. Well, you did not manage to get it fixed for the
> release.
In a way much worse, yes. And should it not be "we did not manage". It
is a big collaborative effort (and I like that).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 12:03 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
@ 2007-04-27 12:22 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-27 21:41 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-04-27 12:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman (gmail)
Cc: Glenn Morris, emacs-devel, user42, rms, Kim F. Storm
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
> David Kastrup wrote:
>
>>>>>>> This problem really bothers people, so we should not leave it unfixed.
>>>>>> Richard, sorry for shouting, but how else can I make you listen:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
>>>>> I beg to differ. The current situation is very inconvenient and
>>>>> confusing sometimes when you open for example php files.
>>>> There have been five years to go about fixing this. NOW IS NOT THE
>>>> TIME!!!
>>> If I do not misremember I have mentioned this problem before.
>>
>> So much the worse. Well, you did not manage to get it fixed for the
>> release.
>
> In a way much worse, yes. And should it not be "we did not
> manage". It is a big collaborative effort (and I like that).
I wrote "get it fixed", not "fix it". If you are bothered by a
problem, it is your problem to get it fixed, by whoever.
Tough, but hardly world-shattering.
Of course it is not your fault that Richard has no concept of
"release-critical" and so everybody else is pussyfooting around him as
the last resort for _ever_ getting out a release.
In a sane development and release environment, bringing up a bug or
problem should be allowed at anytime. Unfortunately, we don't have a
sane development environment. The silliest things will cause Richard
to extend the pretest cycle with invasive changes.
So it becomes the responsibility of bug reporters to shut their trap
until Richard is fooled into believing that Emacs 22.1 will be perfect
for everybody, and feels fine releasing it.
So get in line with the rest. Everybody has his pet peeves. We can't
afford to let Richard hear about any of them (lest they be
release-critical or already completely vetoed) until after the
release.
Sorry for sounding off so cynical. If somebody else can offer a
better view on events, go for it. I'd be glad to be shown wrong,
_really_ glad.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 11:14 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 11:41 ` David Kastrup
@ 2007-04-27 12:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-04-27 14:11 ` David Reitter
2007-04-27 20:17 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 18:58 ` Edward O'Connor
2 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-04-27 12:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman (gmail); +Cc: emacs-devel
> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:14:30 +0200
> From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, user42@zip.com.au, rms@gnu.org,
> emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> > WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
>
> I beg to differ.
That is because, Lennart, you don't care for the release at all. You
are using the CVS code, lobby others to use the binaries you prepare
from CVS, and therefore an officially released version of Emacs has no
real value to you. Why care about it, if there's always tomorrow's
CVS?
You are, of course, entitled to think and act like that, but that's
not how most of Emacs users think and act, evidently. Most Emacs
users want an officially released version, or are forced by their
sysadmins to use official versions, because they still believe that an
official release has higher quality than today's snapshot. Please
respect those views. They don't really interfere with what you want,
since there's now a release branch, and changes that fix the bugs that
so annoy you can still be checked in to the trunk, from where you can
produce a binary that is free of those bugs.
What David (and others) were talking about was about freezing
(_really_ freezing) the release branch. I don't see why you should
disagree with that, as the fixed version will be ready on the trunk in
no time.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 10:27 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-04-27 11:14 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
@ 2007-04-27 12:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-04-27 20:53 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-04-28 4:06 ` Richard Stallman
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-04-27 12:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kim F. Storm; +Cc: rms, emacs-devel
> From: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm)
> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:27:06 +0200
> Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, user42@zip.com.au, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> Once we have rolled the .100 pretest (very soon I hope),
>
> PLEASE DO NOT INSTALL _ANY_ PATCHES on the EMACS_22_BASE branch,
>
> unless they are directly related to breakage caused by one of the
> recent changes made before the .100 pretest.
Actually, I think even changes that _are_ directly related to recent
breakage should be committed only very selectively: if the breakage
they caused is really severe. Otherwise we will still be trapped
inside the same vicious circle.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 6:22 ` David Kastrup
@ 2007-04-27 13:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-04-27 13:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: rms, emacs-devel
> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:22:58 +0200
> Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, user42@zip.com.au, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> You may be basking in the illusion that this increases the quality of
> the released Emacs. I severely doubt that.
Actually, I'm positive that the quality of Emacs codebase has not
improved, on the average, for quite some time. We are in a limit
cycle, whereby changes are committed that could wait until after the
release, those changes cause breakage, the breakage is fixed, then
another unnecessary change is made, and so on. And the quality
respectively oscillates up and down, with no visible trend.
The only way to ensure that the pretest steadily improves the quality
is to consistently enforce more and more stringent rules as to what
changes can go in, until eventually the only allowed changes are
trivial doc fixes and simple rewording in the manuals--and then stick
to this stringent policy for a couple of last pretests.
By contrast, it seems that what we do is waiting for a long enough
period without bug reports as some kind of signal that ``there are no
more serious bugs''. This is of course false, since a period of
silence can (and usually will) be caused by something utterly
unrelated, such as a public holiday or college vacation. Such
decision policy simply means that we will release at some random point
in time, and the quality of the released Emacs will be similarly
random. (Yes, this is a straw man, but if someone can provide any
other reasonable rationale for the current decision policy, please be
my guest.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 12:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2007-04-27 14:11 ` David Reitter
2007-04-27 20:17 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Reitter @ 2007-04-27 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Lennart Borgman (gmail), emacs-devel
On 27 Apr 2007, at 13:48, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> That is because, Lennart, you don't care for the release at all. You
> are using the CVS code, lobby others to use the binaries you prepare
> from CVS, and therefore an officially released version of Emacs has no
> real value to you. Why care about it, if there's always tomorrow's
> CVS?
Even though I am keeping busy preparing binaries for others, I can
only say that I agree with you and David K.: Please, stop checking in
stuff and release 22.1 after the next pretest build.
Because my releases are heavily patched and customized, nothing is
more annoying than to work with the CVS head. I've been shooting at a
moving target for two years now. A release would be in many people's
interests.
I've got a number of bugs that I've reported, and I even wrote
patches for them which did not get checked in. I'm not pursuing it
because I'd like to see a release!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 11:14 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 11:41 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-27 12:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2007-04-27 18:58 ` Edward O'Connor
2 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Edward O'Connor @ 2007-04-27 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Kim wrote:
> Richard, sorry for shouting, but how else can I make you listen:
>
> WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
Lennart replied:
> I beg to differ. The current situation is very inconvenient and
> confusing sometimes when you open for example php files.
As someone who edits PHP files with Emacs for many hours every day, I
can honestly say that I'm far more concerned with the release than I am
with any inconveniences on the PHP front or, for that matter, any other
specific mode.
Ted
--
Edward O'Connor
hober0@gmail.com
Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2007-04-27 11:17 ` html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight Leo
@ 2007-04-27 19:51 ` Glenn Morris
2007-04-28 4:07 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-28 8:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
3 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Glenn Morris @ 2007-04-27 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms; +Cc: user42, emacs-devel
Richard Stallman wrote:
> Please do not exaggerate. There are about 52 lines of code changes,
> bu most of them are just indentation changes. Real changes are about
> 20 lines.
FWIW, I wasn't deliberately exaggerating; I just looked at the size of
your message without looking closely at the patch. I find `-w' a
useful addition to diff's switches.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 12:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-04-27 14:11 ` David Reitter
@ 2007-04-27 20:17 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 20:53 ` Chong Yidong
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2007-04-27 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> That is because, Lennart, you don't care for the release at all. You
> are using the CVS code, lobby others to use the binaries you prepare
> from CVS, and therefore an officially released version of Emacs has no
> real value to you. Why care about it, if there's always tomorrow's
> CVS?
I think you are underestimating yourself and maybe my view of you when
you write like above.
> You are, of course, entitled to think and act like that, but that's
> not how most of Emacs users think and act, evidently. Most Emacs
> users want an officially released version, or are forced by their
> sysadmins to use official versions, because they still believe that an
> official release has higher quality than today's snapshot. Please
> respect those views.
I try to.
> They don't really interfere with what you want,
> since there's now a release branch, and changes that fix the bugs that
> so annoy you can still be checked in to the trunk, from where you can
> produce a binary that is free of those bugs.
That is good, but I think you are misunderstanding me a bit. Maybe I was
misunderstanding the context in which I answered. The problem I think we
where talking about was the magic-mode-alist. My concern is as usual new
users (I hope many new users will try Emacs 22) and I think
magic-mode-alist is mostly in the way, confusing them.
This particular problem is however not a very, very big problem. In any
case I appreciate constructive answers to the problem.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 20:17 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
@ 2007-04-27 20:53 ` Chong Yidong
2007-04-27 21:02 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Chong Yidong @ 2007-04-27 20:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman (gmail); +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel
"Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
> (I hope many new users will try Emacs 22)
You're rather assuming it's going to be released.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 12:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2007-04-27 20:53 ` Kim F. Storm
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Kim F. Storm @ 2007-04-27 20:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: rms, emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm)
>> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:27:06 +0200
>> Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, user42@zip.com.au, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> Once we have rolled the .100 pretest (very soon I hope),
>>
>> PLEASE DO NOT INSTALL _ANY_ PATCHES on the EMACS_22_BASE branch,
>>
>> unless they are directly related to breakage caused by one of the
>> recent changes made before the .100 pretest.
>
> Actually, I think even changes that _are_ directly related to recent
> breakage should be committed only very selectively: if the breakage
> they caused is really severe.
I agree. In my book "breakage" implies "severe" :-)
--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 20:53 ` Chong Yidong
@ 2007-04-27 21:02 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2007-04-27 21:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chong Yidong; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel
Chong Yidong wrote:
> "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> (I hope many new users will try Emacs 22)
>
> You're rather assuming it's going to be released.
Yes, I really hope so.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 12:22 ` David Kastrup
@ 2007-04-27 21:41 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman (gmail) @ 2007-04-27 21:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel
David Kastrup wrote:
> I wrote "get it fixed", not "fix it". If you are bothered by a
> problem, it is your problem to get it fixed, by whoever.
Yes, I saw you wrote "get it fixed". But even that is a collaborative
effort.
> Tough, but hardly world-shattering.
No, but maybe impossible in some situations. Collaboration is of course
a big win/necessity for a huge project. It does not come for free
however. Majority vs minority questions will always have to be tackled
to avoid long term difficulties.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 10:27 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-04-27 11:14 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 12:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2007-04-28 4:06 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-28 13:59 ` David Kastrup
` (2 more replies)
2 siblings, 3 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-04-28 4:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kim F. Storm; +Cc: rgm, user42, emacs-devel
WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
Do you expect me to believe you because you shout?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 19:51 ` Glenn Morris
@ 2007-04-28 4:07 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-28 8:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-04-28 4:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: user42, emacs-devel
FWIW, I wasn't deliberately exaggerating; I just looked at the size of
your message without looking closely at the patch. I find `-w' a
useful addition to diff's switches.
I understand. I didn't take it personally.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-27 19:51 ` Glenn Morris
2007-04-28 4:07 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2007-04-28 8:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-04-28 8:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:51:53 -0400
> Cc: user42@zip.com.au, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> I find `-w' a useful addition to diff's switches.
Except when applying them with Patch.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-28 4:06 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2007-04-28 13:59 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-28 14:20 ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-04-29 21:17 ` Kim F. Storm
2 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-04-28 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms; +Cc: rgm, emacs-devel, user42, Kim F. Storm
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
>
> Do you expect me to believe you because you shout?
Well, the evidence is that you don't heed people when they tell you
again and again without shouting.
So I don't think he expects you to believe him whether or not he is
shouting, but he rather is venting his frustration.
Which is understandable. We have been going over this for months. I
happen to be very annoyed as well by the recent completely irrational
holdups of the release.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-28 4:06 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-28 13:59 ` David Kastrup
@ 2007-04-28 14:20 ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-04-29 21:17 ` Kim F. Storm
2 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2007-04-28 14:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel
On 4/28/07, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
> Do you expect me to believe you because you shout?
Personally I would expect you to give some credence to Kim, and many
others who also spoke about the issue and do have experience in
managing releases, without the need of anyone shouting.
(I'm not implying you lack experience in managing software releases,
of course; only pointing out that the people you're choosing not to
believe do not talk idly or lightly.)
Juanma
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-28 4:06 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-28 13:59 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-28 14:20 ` Juanma Barranquero
@ 2007-04-29 21:17 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-04-30 22:09 ` Richard Stallman
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Kim F. Storm @ 2007-04-29 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms; +Cc: rgm, user42, emacs-devel
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> WHAT _REALLY_ BOTHERS PEOPLE IS THAT EMACS 22.1 IS NOT RELEASED YET.
>
> Do you expect me to believe you because you shout?
Given past history, (sadly) no.
FWIW, I will not contribute any further to Emacs development until
Emacs 22.1 has been officially released.
Once that happens, I will resume Emacs development, provided that
SOMEBODY ELSE controls future emacs releases.
Believe me!!!
--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight
2007-04-29 21:17 ` Kim F. Storm
@ 2007-04-30 22:09 ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-04 9:13 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) David Kastrup
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-04-30 22:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kim F. Storm; +Cc: rgm, user42, emacs-devel
FWIW, I will not contribute any further to Emacs development until
Emacs 22.1 has been officially released.
I appreciate your past contributions, and I regret your departure.
I hope you will be back some day.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight)
2007-04-30 22:09 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2007-05-04 9:13 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-04 9:41 ` unicode-2 and multitty Jason Rumney
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-05-04 9:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> FWIW, I will not contribute any further to Emacs development
> until Emacs 22.1 has been officially released.
>
> I appreciate your past contributions, and I regret your departure.
> I hope you will be back some day.
This ominous remark makes little sense unless there is no intent of
actually releasing Emacs 22.1 in the foreseeable future.
So the question is what developers who don't want to be party to the
release farce are supposed to do if they don't want to let Emacs
development fall into obsolescence.
While the release is "imminent", letting HEAD and the release branch
diverge would likely be impolite. So what work is there to be done?
The roadmap called more or less for merging the multitty branch and
the unicode-2 branch "after the release". There is probably no
necessity in doing this kind of work in HEAD. It should likely be
possible to already do this in unicode-2. The disadvantage would be
that it will become somewhat more work to keep changes in HEAD
synchronized to unicode-2, but the multitty branch was supposed to be
confined to a rather small number of places.
Doing this now will work towards a timely release of Emacs 23.1, and
it would appear that there is little sense in freezing the Emacs 23.1
process just because 22.1 is stalling.
So for those who have gotten tired investing energy and focus into the
release of 22.1 (and there remains little enough in the way of
_possibilities_ to invest them there), maybe it would be a possibility
to switch to the unicode-2 branch, and also work on the merge of
multitty.
I know that there are a few prepacked "Emacs-23" variants around:
would it be acceptable to the maintainers of those if the unicode-2
branch were to go through a period of relative instability caused by
the merge of multitty?
Would it be better etiquette to create or use a different mailing list
than this one for discussing such work on the unicode-2 branch?
Thanks,
--
David Kastrup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty
2007-05-04 9:13 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) David Kastrup
@ 2007-05-04 9:41 ` Jason Rumney
2007-05-04 10:14 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-04 9:42 ` Ulrich Mueller
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Jason Rumney @ 2007-05-04 9:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel
David Kastrup wrote:
> I know that there are a few prepacked "Emacs-23" variants around:
> would it be acceptable to the maintainers of those if the unicode-2
> branch were to go through a period of relative instability caused by
> the merge of multitty?
>
Since multitty has never been in CVS, it hasn't had as widespread
testing as unicode-2, especially on non-unix/GNU platforms. So it is
probably better to create a new branch, and first import the multitty
code from its current repository, then merge in the unicode-2 changes.
Once that branch is stable, we can abandon the unicode-2 branch and use
the new branch for all "future" development.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty
2007-05-04 9:13 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) David Kastrup
2007-05-04 9:41 ` unicode-2 and multitty Jason Rumney
@ 2007-05-04 9:42 ` Ulrich Mueller
2007-05-04 10:39 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-04 21:18 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) Richard Stallman
3 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Ulrich Mueller @ 2007-05-04 9:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs, emacs-devel
>>>>> On Fri, 04 May 2007, David Kastrup wrote:
> I know that there are a few prepacked "Emacs-23" variants around:
> would it be acceptable to the maintainers of those if the unicode-2
> branch were to go through a period of relative instability caused by
> the merge of multitty?
Gentoo currently has live CVS packages app-editors/emacs-cvs-23.0.0*
for Linux and FreeBSD. There is also demand from users for integration
of multi-tty (see for example <http://bugs.gentoo.org/77076>).
So yes, it would be acceptable for us.
Ulrich
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty
2007-05-04 9:41 ` unicode-2 and multitty Jason Rumney
@ 2007-05-04 10:14 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-04 20:46 ` Kim F. Storm
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-05-04 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jason Rumney; +Cc: emacs-devel
Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> writes:
> David Kastrup wrote:
>> I know that there are a few prepacked "Emacs-23" variants around:
>> would it be acceptable to the maintainers of those if the unicode-2
>> branch were to go through a period of relative instability caused by
>> the merge of multitty?
>>
>
> Since multitty has never been in CVS, it hasn't had as widespread
> testing as unicode-2, especially on non-unix/GNU platforms. So it is
> probably better to create a new branch, and first import the multitty
> code from its current repository, then merge in the unicode-2
> changes. Once that branch is stable, we can abandon the unicode-2
> branch and use the new branch for all "future" development.
Since the file structure of the multitty branch supposedly will see no
further changes, an import into CVS will probably not make development
harder.
Károly, do you think you could create a branch and do that with an
updated version of the multitty stuff? There is probably little sense
in importing your personal change history.
Since the goal after the multitty merge would be merging unicode-2, it
would likely make sense to name the branch multitty-unicode-2.
Since this step would more or less imply a bit of passing of
responsibility for the multitty work, this basically makes sense only
if there is a non-zero number of developers who would be willing to
spend the time necessary for occasionally synching to HEAD while HEAD
still changes (as long as HEAD does not diverge from the release
branch, this should not be too much work, and once it is allowed to
substantially diverge, it would be time to replace it by the
multitty-unicode-2 branch, anyway).
There will also be the one-time work to merge unicode-2 into it.
Since both multitty and unicode-2 are currently close to HEAD and the
functional overlap of the branches is small, the initial merge should
likely not require an overwhelming amount of manual work. Getting the
merge to actually work might be a different thing, however.
It is likely that people (like myself) who have grown accustomed to
using their CVS version of Emacs also for production work will have to
keep a binary from the HEAD branch around for a while until the merge
has converged to a reasonably compilable and crash-free state.
But I think this should be doable. It also does not appear to me like
the pace of the Emacs 22.1 release would be significantly affected by
this diversion of developers moving to a new branch.
>From a project management point of view, it could possibly make more
sense to actually do this work in HEAD. While I personally consider
the point of the release branching to have been that HEAD can move on
to the next development phase, this will be Richard's call to make.
Creating a separate multitty-unicode-2 branch leaves open the choice
when to move the HEAD attention (usually the principal focus of
developer interest) to the remaining Emacs 23 work.
--
David Kastrup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight)
2007-05-04 9:13 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) David Kastrup
2007-05-04 9:41 ` unicode-2 and multitty Jason Rumney
2007-05-04 9:42 ` Ulrich Mueller
@ 2007-05-04 10:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-04 11:12 ` unicode-2 and multitty David Kastrup
2007-05-04 21:18 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) Richard Stallman
3 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-05-04 10:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 11:13:27 +0200
>
> While the release is "imminent", letting HEAD and the release branch
> diverge would likely be impolite.
??? I thought the main reason for cutting the release branch was to
allow development on the trunk without affecting the release. So
what's impolite about committing changes on the trunk now?
> Would it be better etiquette to create or use a different mailing list
> than this one for discussing such work on the unicode-2 branch?
Please don't start another schism.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty
2007-05-04 10:39 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) Eli Zaretskii
@ 2007-05-04 11:12 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-05-04 11:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
>> Date: Fri, 04 May 2007 11:13:27 +0200
>>
>> While the release is "imminent", letting HEAD and the release
>> branch diverge would likely be impolite.
>
> ??? I thought the main reason for cutting the release branch was to
> allow development on the trunk without affecting the release. So
> what's impolite about committing changes on the trunk now?
We are not talking about "committing changes" but a branch merge. At
the current point of time, the decision "commit to both HEAD and
RELEASE_22 branch or just one" is easy to make on a case by case base.
After merging a branch into HEAD, this will become harder. Since we
have had quite a few commits into both locations that clearly are not
prerelease fixes, it pretty much requires Richard to decide what
should go where in the case of those two. But Richard is a scarce
resource, so it does not make sense that everybody waits for his word
on everything. Things would be different if Richard clearly stated
that we can commence with the _serious_ work on HEAD.
So instead of having developers idle until such a time, I proposed
creating a branch for the impeding work. Personally, I would consider
HEAD the more logical choice. Which of the two it should be is
Richard's call. Doing neither would seem like a waste of developer
resources.
>> Would it be better etiquette to create or use a different mailing
>> list than this one for discussing such work on the unicode-2
>> branch?
>
> Please don't start another schism.
A schism? Thinking about how developers can start working in the
previously agreed upon way without disrupting those who still are
focused on the delayed release process seems hardly like a schism.
There seems to be little sense in most developers idling while the
remaining problems concerning the release are still being sorted out.
Emacs has a variety of branches in CVS: those hardly constitute
schisms.
There is currently a separate mailing list for the multitty branch
(which is not yet in CVS but really should go there now, I think):
discussion of its problems have been kept off this list for now. I
don't think that it is amiss to ask whether the merge discussion
should go on there, here or elsewhere.
--
David Kastrup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty
2007-05-04 10:14 ` David Kastrup
@ 2007-05-04 20:46 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-05-05 0:26 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-05 21:54 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Kim F. Storm @ 2007-05-04 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel, Jason Rumney
David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
> Since the goal after the multitty merge would be merging unicode-2, it
> would likely make sense to name the branch multitty-unicode-2.
This sounds rather silly to me.
Since we have branched for Emacs 22.1, that branch should be used for
possible updates (22.2, 22.3, etc) --- just like the 21_RC branch was
used for the 21.2, 21.3, and 21.4 releases.
IMO (which obviously don't count at present), the trunk should be
opened NOW for those who want to work on 23.1, i.e. unicode-2 and
multitty should be merged to TRUNK as soon as possible.
Maybe you don't need to import the multitty changes as a branch
in CVS. I suppose that the changes can be committed directly on the
TRUNK as a (big) set of changes - and just describe the changes in the
relevant ChangeLog files. [That's how it would have been done if we
had had a sane release procedure].
BTW, on TRUNK, the NEWS file should be renamed to NEWS.22 and a new NEWS
file should be created. The ChangeLog files should also be renamed
and new files created.
Note: The arch tag follows to the renamed files -- making future
merging from the EMACS_22 branch trivial to merge back to the TRUNK
via arch.
--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight)
2007-05-04 9:13 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) David Kastrup
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2007-05-04 10:39 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) Eli Zaretskii
@ 2007-05-04 21:18 ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-05 0:17 ` unicode-2 and multitty David Kastrup
3 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-05-04 21:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel
This ominous remark makes little sense unless there is no intent of
actually releasing Emacs 22.1 in the foreseeable future.
That is a mistake. If all your message is predicated on that mistake,
then I think it is misguided.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty
2007-05-04 21:18 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) Richard Stallman
@ 2007-05-05 0:17 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-05-05 0:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> This ominous remark makes little sense unless there is no intent of
> actually releasing Emacs 22.1 in the foreseeable future.
>
> That is a mistake. If all your message is predicated on that
> mistake, then I think it is misguided.
Then it would appear that I picked a bad guide. Whatever. However,
the fact remains that we already branched for release, and that
several developers don't feel they can contribute anything useful
anymore to make the release of 22.1 happen.
So it would seem that their energies would better be invested by
starting with the work that was intended to be done after the branch
split, namely merging the multitty branch into the trunk first, and
unicode-2 afterwards.
That was the point of branching, after all. Would you agree that this
seems like the sensible thing to do now for them? If not, what else?
It would at least seem to be conducive to make Emacs 23.1 happen
earlier, and we certainly could gather some points among Emacs fans if
we did our best to let 23.1 happen faster than 22.1.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty
2007-05-04 20:46 ` Kim F. Storm
@ 2007-05-05 0:26 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-05 21:54 ` Stefan Monnier
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-05-05 0:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Since the goal after the multitty merge would be merging unicode-2,
>> it would likely make sense to name the branch multitty-unicode-2.
>
> This sounds rather silly to me.
You are right. I just have the feeling that the sane choices are more
or less blocked.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty
2007-05-04 20:46 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-05-05 0:26 ` David Kastrup
@ 2007-05-05 21:54 ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-07 9:55 ` Kim F. Storm
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-05-05 21:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kim F. Storm; +Cc: Jason Rumney, emacs-devel
> Maybe you don't need to import the multitty changes as a branch
> in CVS. I suppose that the changes can be committed directly on the
> TRUNK as a (big) set of changes.
I might be sufficient, but I think it might also be worthwhile to first
commit it on a separate branch and then try and merge it.
It just seems conceptually cleaner, leaving a clear and recognizable trace
of the branch before it was merged.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty
2007-05-05 21:54 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2007-05-07 9:55 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-05-07 10:09 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Kim F. Storm @ 2007-05-07 9:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel, Jason Rumney
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> Maybe you don't need to import the multitty changes as a branch
>> in CVS. I suppose that the changes can be committed directly on the
>> TRUNK as a (big) set of changes.
>
> I might be sufficient, but I think it might also be worthwhile to first
> commit it on a separate branch and then try and merge it.
> It just seems conceptually cleaner, leaving a clear and recognizable trace
> of the branch before it was merged.
For that, you can just put a "BEFORE_MULTITTY_MERGE" tag on the trunk.
--
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: unicode-2 and multitty
2007-05-07 9:55 ` Kim F. Storm
@ 2007-05-07 10:09 ` David Kastrup
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: David Kastrup @ 2007-05-07 10:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kim F. Storm; +Cc: Jason Rumney, Stefan Monnier, emacs-devel
storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>>> Maybe you don't need to import the multitty changes as a branch
>>> in CVS. I suppose that the changes can be committed directly on the
>>> TRUNK as a (big) set of changes.
>>
>> I might be sufficient, but I think it might also be worthwhile to first
>> commit it on a separate branch and then try and merge it.
>> It just seems conceptually cleaner, leaving a clear and recognizable trace
>> of the branch before it was merged.
>
> For that, you can just put a "BEFORE_MULTITTY_MERGE" tag on the trunk.
The disadvantage is that while the merge is in progress, the trunk
will not be usable.
However,
a) unless I am mistaken, Károly's version of the multitty code _is_
essentially merged with the trunk already (though trunk moves
onward). The merge will just be concerned with stuff checked in since
the last synch.
b) if trunk does not work right away, this would be a strong incentive
for people to fix this.
So we basically need two things to go ahead
a) Károly's opinion of the state of his archive, and his possible
resources/involvement for putting the stuff into branch or trunk.
b) the "go ahead" from Richard.
While Richard has been looking for a maintainer for 23.x, it would
appear to me that actually commencing the merge would not require a
previous appointment of a different maintainer.
--
David Kastrup
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2007-05-07 10:09 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 46+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
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[not found] ` <87mz0y8vyk.fsf@zip.com.au>
2007-04-25 14:51 ` html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight Richard Stallman
2007-04-25 17:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2007-04-25 18:18 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-26 4:11 ` Glenn Morris
2007-04-27 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-27 6:22 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-27 13:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-04-27 10:27 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-04-27 11:14 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 11:41 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-27 11:49 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 11:56 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-27 12:03 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 12:22 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-27 21:41 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 12:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-04-27 14:11 ` David Reitter
2007-04-27 20:17 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 20:53 ` Chong Yidong
2007-04-27 21:02 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2007-04-27 18:58 ` Edward O'Connor
2007-04-27 12:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2007-04-27 20:53 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-04-28 4:06 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-28 13:59 ` David Kastrup
2007-04-28 14:20 ` Juanma Barranquero
2007-04-29 21:17 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-04-30 22:09 ` Richard Stallman
2007-05-04 9:13 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) David Kastrup
2007-05-04 9:41 ` unicode-2 and multitty Jason Rumney
2007-05-04 10:14 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-04 20:46 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-05-05 0:26 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-05 21:54 ` Stefan Monnier
2007-05-07 9:55 ` Kim F. Storm
2007-05-07 10:09 ` David Kastrup
2007-05-04 9:42 ` Ulrich Mueller
2007-05-04 10:39 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) Eli Zaretskii
2007-05-04 11:12 ` unicode-2 and multitty David Kastrup
2007-05-04 21:18 ` unicode-2 and multitty (was: html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight) Richard Stallman
2007-05-05 0:17 ` unicode-2 and multitty David Kastrup
2007-04-27 11:17 ` html-mode demanding <html> a bit too tight Leo
2007-04-27 19:51 ` Glenn Morris
2007-04-28 4:07 ` Richard Stallman
2007-04-28 8:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
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