From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:09:54 +0200 Message-ID: <85k5u4nlrh.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <6sps3z32ap.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87tztbcue9.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87lkemmrg4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <18033.64249.816850.550250@kahikatea.snap.net.nz> <85ejkcq32v.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1181995835 7720 80.91.229.12 (16 Jun 2007 12:10:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 12:10:35 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 16 14:10:33 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HzX6t-0005w3-RV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:10:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HzX6s-0001nR-Sg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 08:10:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HzX6o-0001mW-KH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 08:10:26 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HzX6n-0001mK-1U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 08:10:25 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HzX6m-0001mH-Rw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 08:10:24 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-11.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.51]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HzX6k-0005tg-BY; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 08:10:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.16]) by mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE92111E2B; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:10:20 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.42]) by mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A44ABFA9; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:10:20 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-025-018.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.25.18]) by mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231FA36E867; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:10:20 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 7A35E1C4D4A7; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:09:54 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat\, 16 Jun 2007 13\:48\:33 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:73059 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: David Kastrup >> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 00:12:56 +0200 >> Cc: rgm@gnu.org, handa@m17n.org, Nick Roberts , >> emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, cyd@stupidchicken.com >> >> It just appears quite pointless to be driving with the handbrake on >> after we passed the point of the release. > > I don't necessarily agree with Richard's decision, but can you > explain why should it be a drag on the development? If someone > wants to make far-reaching changes, they could always switch to the > Unicode branch and make them there, can't they? And that is going to make merging unicode-2 into the trunk easier just how? And if we are considering new feature branches, should they be based off unicode-2 in order to have the ability to prepare stuff intended for 23.1? > Also, please note that it was Ken'ichi who asked not to make changes > on the trunk that would make it harder to merge the Unicode branch; > if you want to be fair, why don't you lobby Ken'ichi as hard as you > lobby Richard? Why would I? What is the plan for the trunk? The two opinions here are: Richard) Let's keep the trunk close to 22.1 Ken'ichi) Let's keep the trunk close to unicode-2 so that we can move forward soon with merging, and don't have extra effort to move Emacs to 23.1. The difference is that I see no useful "so that" for Richard's desire. The direction of development should be forward, not backward. Would Ken'ichi complain if we merged unicode-2 into the trunk tomorrow? I doubt it. There is a _purpose_ to Ken'ichi's request, and that purpose is to facilitate move development forward. I fail to see a similar purpose to the request of Richard. >> The current plan, however, seems to be "let's achieve as little as >> possible over as long as possible". > > That's just being vicious, David. There are ways to say what you > want without assuming malicious intent such as this, which Richard > clearly cannot have. I don't see where I am stating malicious intent here. It is quite obvious that Richard does not consider a stop of development a bad thing, or he would hardly argue for it. I consider it a bad thing, actually a very, very, very bad thing: now that Emacs has come a bit up on the radar of media and user attention, the main message to be gleaned from the developer lists is that we actively refrain from using that opportunity to have the glacial development of Emacs pick off. Worse, people are discouraged from thinking about the next release: instead it is mandated that we stop development for "a few months". One of the points of branching EMACS_22_BASE and making the 22.1 release was to be able to move forward again after _years_ of stalling and freezing for "a few months". If I were of the opinion that Richard was being malicious, I would not argue with him. In his political work, he is thinking and working in time frames of decades and lifetimes: that is the scale at which shaping the flow of global thinking takes place. Opportunities for changing the twist and turns of humanity are rare to come by. The flow of coding is that going on in spurts at night and on weekends. Opportunities for changing the twist and turns of program code arise and fall by the wayside daily. Pausing for several months for no discernible reason is _costly_ in programming, in particular in a distributed project. In politics, that is the normal state of affairs. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum