From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:28:50 +0200 Message-ID: <85k5irvtod.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <004a01c8a1a0$7215cdd0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <87hcdxz9zr.fsf_-_@jurta.org> <87ve2cfk9x.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <200804201931.m3KJVO4X008875@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <858wz8ux2w.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480BA779.2080507@gmail.com> <853apguv0s.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480BAD5C.4090204@gmail.com> <85prskte96.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480BB8C0.4020303@gmail.com> <85abjnu5ss.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480C31B9.6060900@gmail.com> <85y777sp1i.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480C36D8.1060500@gmail.com> <85r6czsg5u.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480CC486.9030406@gmail.com> <85hcdvxekg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480CF0A1.70609@gnu.org> <480CF2C0.40505@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1208809874 1945 80.91.229.12 (21 Apr 2008 20:31:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:31:14 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Juri Linkov , Dan Nicolaescu , Stefan Monnier , Jason Rumney , drew.adams@oracle.com To: "Lennart Borgman \(gmail\)" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 21 22:31:44 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jo2fV-0004bv-PB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:31:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo2e0-000464-4Q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:29:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo2du-00045L-Gr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:29:38 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo2dm-00041R-Ib for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:29:37 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo2dm-00041I-8s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:29:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-16.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.56]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jo2dN-00044z-6l; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:29:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-20-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-20-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.85]) by mail-in-16.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C791F707C; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:28:56 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-13.arcor-online.net (mail-in-13.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.53]) by mail-in-20-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581D6107D7C; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:28:56 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-038-079.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.38.79]) by mail-in-13.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A6223D1E5; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:28:53 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 1501C1C3C7BC; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:28:49 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <480CF2C0.40505@gmail.com> (Lennart Borgman's message of "Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:02:08 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92.1/6865/Mon Apr 21 17:43:29 2008 on mail-in-13.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:95702 Archived-At: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" writes: > Jason Rumney wrote: >> Don't mix C-SPC setting of the mark and Shift-movement. Use one or >> the other. > > > I would actually suggest one mixing: > > - If the user activated the region with Shift-movement and then types > C-SPC then keep the current active region, but switch to the C-SPC > semantics for the current active region (ie arrow keys should not > deactivate the region). Anyway, we have at least three active region semantics in Emacs' default behavior: a) semi-traditional transient-mark-mode (with mark-even-if-inactive) b) temporary transient-mark-mode triggered by mouse commands c) whatever transient-mark-mode triggered by shift-movement It turns out that (b) and (c), for some reason, can extend a region set by each other, while (a) can't. However, you can extend a region set with (a) with a (b) type mouse command (right click to extend region). You can't extend (a) using (c). For a region selected with (b), hitting DEL will erase the region. This is not the case for either (a) or (c). This is pretty much an incoherent mess. Since the objective was to have a "newbie-mode", I propose that we at the very least fold (b) and (c) into a single mode. This implies that hitting DEL after either (b) or (c) style marking should delete the region. For this single mode, we might want to have the equivalent of delete-selection-mode available (possibly by default, but at the very least optional): erasing an active region selection by one of the two "well-known/newbie/industry-standard" methods (b) and (c) when a self-inserting character is typed. Note that I am talking about a consolidated _default_ behavior of Emacs here. It is not clear to me which of the multitude of existing mode variables should actually be retained. I don't think it realistic to get coherent behavior for all combinations of existing and necessary new mode variable settings. At the very least, I think that the exact current semantics of temporary-transient-mark-mode in connection with mouse commands is not worth trying to preserve with some setting combination in the course of this cleanup. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum