From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: X fonts selection weirdness Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:15:25 +0200 Message-ID: <85ej6mnd5u.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20080624.145703.566779761171555788.kasahara@nc.kyushu-u.ac.jp> <20080624.180802.154682915676368965.kasahara@nc.kyushu-u.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1214381767 2256 80.91.229.12 (25 Jun 2008 08:16:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:16:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Yoshiaki Kasahara , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Kenichi Handa Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 25 10:16:52 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KBQB0-0000Jz-Dp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:16:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48580 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KBQAA-0008H8-PF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:15:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KBQA6-0008H1-Bk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:15:30 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KBQA4-0008Go-Ob for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:15:29 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=55045 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KBQA4-0008Gl-Ls for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:15:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-13.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.53]:35218) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KBQA4-000516-Ky for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:15:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.20]) by mail-in-13.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A6CC1E50F6; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:15:26 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-14.arcor-online.net (mail-in-14.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.54]) by mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC2D2130A3; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:15:26 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-000-169.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.0.169]) by mail-in-14.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CEF187915; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:15:26 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id CE9C51CD2F4D; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:15:25 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Kenichi Handa's message of "Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:47:22 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93/7407/Mon Jun 9 04:21:00 2008 on mail-in-14.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:99899 Archived-At: Kenichi Handa writes: > I installed a fix. Please try again. [...] > The above should work, but I'm now thinking about > introducing non-default-font-script-list: [...] I can't help feeling that we are currently stumbling without much orientation through a maze of ad-hoc local patches and fixes. This does not feel like it should be the intended mode of operation: other applications have to use fontsets, too. So I have the suspicion that at least for some platforms, we are approaching the problem from an angle that has not been intended by the creators of the rendering infrastructures we are using. It may be that the current Emacs APIs don't allow us to match our font stuff to what is Xft's intended operation. In that case, it might be better to interface at a different level. If that means that the behavior and customization of Xft- and non-Xft rendering will differ more than it does currently, that would appear a reasonable price to pay in my opinion. In any way: our current rate of creating yet another ad-hoc variable intended to patch around the font system in a manner that no other application does is not useful for platform integration. And it does not help people understand what happens. I have no expertise at all in that area. I just recognize a pattern here that feels like a bad idea. It is a pattern occuring when something needs to get shipped, and sound judgment is suspended while "just make it work, we won't touch this again" is the only left priority. But "we won't touch this again" is not what we are aiming for here. If doing this right needs more time and plan and thought, then we should invest that. Or it is going to bite us later. Again: I lack the technical skills to judge the subsystems here. I might be all wrong about this. But it feels increasingly that we are getting complexity that will be beyond all users, even if perhaps not all developers. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum