From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:37:39 +0200 Message-ID: <85abjnu5ss.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <004a01c8a1a0$7215cdd0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <878wz9btq8.fsf@jurta.org> <85fxthy4qp.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87hcdxz9zr.fsf_-_@jurta.org> <87ve2cfk9x.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <200804201931.m3KJVO4X008875@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <858wz8ux2w.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480BA779.2080507@gmail.com> <853apguv0s.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480BAD5C.4090204@gmail.com> <85prskte96.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480BB8C0.4020303@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1208756294 20613 80.91.229.12 (21 Apr 2008 05:38:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 05:38:14 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Juri Linkov , Dan Nicolaescu , Stefan Monnier , drew.adams@oracle.com To: "Lennart Borgman \(gmail\)" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 21 07:38:48 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jnojk-0006dm-Vd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:38:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jnoj5-0001q3-MH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:38:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jnoj1-0001po-Du for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:37:59 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jnoiz-0001pc-LG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:37:58 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jnoiz-0001pZ-I2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:37:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-05.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.45]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jnoiv-0008Hm-7L; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:37:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-16-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-16-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.33]) by mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A181833F0; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:37:49 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-14.arcor-online.net (mail-in-14.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.54]) by mail-in-16-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D052543D7; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:37:49 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-038-079.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.38.79]) by mail-in-14.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CFAC1876FD; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:37:49 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 4D7F21C39587; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:37:39 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <480BB8C0.4020303@gmail.com> (Lennart Borgman's message of "Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:42:24 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92.1/6858/Mon Apr 21 05:27:34 2008 on mail-in-14.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:95596 Archived-At: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" writes: > David Kastrup wrote: >>>>> Many new users expects this. >>>> Not when they are not expecting an active region in the first place. >>>> There are more ways to make a region active than the explicit ways that >>>> a "new user expects". >>> Why does that matter? Are we not talking about a visibly marked >>> region? >> >> Not everybody searches the screen for tell-tale signs of an active >> region before typing any letter. > > Yes, I know some long time Emacs users works this way (and that is > understandable since the regions was not visibly marked before by > default), but we are talking about the new users here. New users are not inefficient morons. And if they are, there is no reason for them to stay thus. >>>>> If the default will be that typing new text replaces the visible >>>>> region then maybe there should be a substate where it is possible to >>>>> type in new text while the region is visible? One way this could be >>>>> done is to let C-x C-x go into that substate (in addition to doing >>>>> what it does now). >>>>> >>>>> Would that be to inconvinient? >>>> It sounds messy. We already have too many different region states. >>> But the wish to make this work for both new and old users call for a >>> new state, right? >> >> Wrong. I already proposed folding mouse-activated-deletion mode into >> transient regions which would make for one less state, and provide a >> somewhat less contentious part of delete-selection-mode. >> >> Is there a reason you are ignoring that particular proposal? > > Yes, I am not using the mouse if I can avoid it ;-) It had nothing to do whatsoever with using the mouse. > It was not my intention to ignore it of course. However rereading what > you wrote I see that you said that there is no way for the average > (new) user to deactivate the region. He/she can use the arrow keys > without shift. That does not deactivate a region when transient-mark-mode is used. Could you please focus on _Emacs_ instead of whatever else you might be thinking of? -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum