From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: doc of defining minor modes Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 19:52:33 +0200 Message-ID: <857j4haom6.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1148061224 19191 80.91.229.2 (19 May 2006 17:53:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:53:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs-Devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 19 19:53:42 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fh9AQ-0005zq-5N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 May 2006 19:53:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fh9AP-0001tr-LZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:53:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Fh9AE-0001sY-K1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:53:26 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Fh9AD-0001sJ-8g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:53:25 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fh9AD-0001sF-12 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:53:25 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Fh9DZ-0006of-EH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:56:53 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lola.goethe.zz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Fh99l-0005RA-3a; Fri, 19 May 2006 13:53:02 -0400 Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 14B1A1C27933; Fri, 19 May 2006 19:52:33 +0200 (CEST) Original-To: "Drew Adams" In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 19 May 2006 10:43:16 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:54826 Archived-At: "Drew Adams" writes: > > It's not obvious to readers of the doc why we provide an :init-value > > possibility and yet we warn people not to use it (except in a > > rare case). There needs to be a good explanation of this uncommon > > coupling. The explanation needs to indicate how the problem that the > > admonition hopes to prevent could arise, that is, _how_ a library > > might get loaded without being loaded directly by the user. > > That is not obvious. > > I don't think it's worth the trouble to write a long explanation. > It's perfectly OK to have arguments and features marked as > "don't ever use this unless you really know what you're doing". > > It's more like "don't use this if you _know_ what you're doing and your > library is exceptional" (large, complex, coupled with other libraries, > preloaded,...). > > The typical, simple case of a standalone external library will not > be preloaded or required by another library, it will not have > autoload cookies, and it would never be loaded behind the user's > back. I don't know what universe you are living in, but practically _all_ external Elisp I know comes with instructions of what to put into your .emacs or elsewhere so that the file will get loaded on-demand. And if the package is somewhat larger, it will come with its own stub file for achieving this. > I think it's worth pointing out what the potential but uncommon > problem is. The problem is common, and that's why we bothered with it. > The problem is that we can't integrate such a package into Emacs > without first fixing this behavior. So of course we don't > encourage that. > > Changing :init-value t to :init-value nil would be the least of your > integration worries. There is no sense in having a library behave differently once it is included in Emacs. > I really don't see that concern as justification for such a blanket > admonition. You are being obnoxious. It has been pointed out to you about a dozen times that this was not done on accident, has been discussed before, and you were asked to stop ignoring the decision that has already been reached and explained to you. Not least of all by Richard. Your opinion is different. Guess what, we noticed. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum