From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.pretest.bugs Subject: Re: 23.0.60; [nxml] BOM and utf-8 Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 01:40:10 +0200 Message-ID: <854p8vrxk5.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <87od75kt78.fsf@pdrechsler.de> <87mymofip6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <878wy8ny36.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87k5hsfdvd.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <85y768ug6x.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87fxsff0xc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1211178775 18107 80.91.229.12 (19 May 2008 06:32:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 06:32:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org, Patrick Drechsler , Miles Bader To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon May 19 08:33:30 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jxyw4-0006i3-AE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 May 2008 08:33:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35000 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JxyvK-0004tu-FB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 May 2008 02:32:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JxyvF-0004sM-V0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2008 02:32:38 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JxyvE-0004q2-6l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2008 02:32:37 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=57236 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JxyvE-0004pz-3l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2008 02:32:36 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:35720) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JxyvD-0008AC-R3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2008 02:32:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:45844) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Jxyu2-00060C-Ca for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2008 02:31:22 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jxyv9-000896-6y for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2008 02:32:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-06.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.46]:60127) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jxyv8-00088Y-E8; Mon, 19 May 2008 02:32:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-19-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-19-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.36]) by mail-in-06.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3FD31E86F; Mon, 19 May 2008 08:32:29 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-09.arcor-online.net (mail-in-09.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.49]) by mail-in-19-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D7F6BD70; Mon, 19 May 2008 08:32:29 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-039-232.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.39.232]) by mail-in-09.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E528534A980; Mon, 19 May 2008 08:32:28 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id A6FA11C464F9; Mon, 19 May 2008 01:40:11 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <87fxsff0xc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Mon, 19 May 2008 12:05:51 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92.1/7153/Mon May 19 02:25:02 2008 on mail-in-09.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:97377 gmane.emacs.pretest.bugs:22383 Archived-At: "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > In any case, maintaining faithfulness of representation is simply not > possible, as you point out With some coding systems. But the latin-* and utf-* can maintain the binary stream since their coding is required to be canonical in the standard. Everything that is not canonical (including the byte sequences for encoding out-of-line octets) is encoded as out-of-line octets as far as I understand. > (safe-character-sets or whatever you call your analog to latin-unity > being another case). It's also not at all obvious that that is a very > useful requirement when dealing with a character-oriented standard > like Unicode or XML, since you can expect many applications to > canonicalize the text "behind your back". That's not an issue. But for example, you can use Emacs to load some library in the coding its texts are encoded in, search and edit a string in overwrite mode (as long as it does not get longer) and save again, and the result will usually work. Also you can load, edit and save a text file in colloborative environments, and the diffs/patches will be just in the edited areas (this will supposedly work better with Emacs-23 than Emacs-22). Those are quite important features. > Users should get used to it, and we should document how to force Emacs > to error rather than do anything behind your back for those who need > binary faithfulness rather than text faithfulness. Since binary faithfulness implies text faithfulness, there is no reason not to the right thing instead of erroring out. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum