* Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial @ 2007-02-01 23:48 Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-02 12:57 ` David Kastrup ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Yotam Medini יותם מדיני @ 2007-02-01 23:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Should someone would volunteer to make a Hebrew translation of the Emacs tutorial, how can that be coordinated? regards -- yotam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-01 23:48 Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial Yotam Medini יותם מדיני @ 2007-02-02 12:57 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-02 13:13 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 11:19 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2007-02-02 12:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yotam Medini; +Cc: emacs-devel Yotam Medini יותם מדיני <yotam.medini@gmail.com> writes: > Should someone would volunteer to make a Hebrew translation > of the Emacs tutorial, how can that be coordinated? I think this would be rather pointless as long as Emacs does not support editing right-to-left languages. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-01 23:48 Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-02 12:57 ` David Kastrup @ 2007-02-02 13:13 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 15:25 ` Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-03 11:19 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 13:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yotam Medini; +Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 01:48:16 +0200 > From: Yotam Medini =?UTF-8?B?15nXldeq150g157Xk9eZ16DXmQ==?= > <yotam.medini@gmail.com> > > Should someone would volunteer to make a Hebrew translation > of the Emacs tutorial, how can that be coordinated? I don't see any sense in having a Hebrew translation of the tutorial as long as Emacs cannot display Hebrew text in a reasonably correct way. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 13:13 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 15:25 ` Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-02 15:33 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-02 18:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Yotam Medini יותם מדיני @ 2007-02-02 15:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:13:16 +0200 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 01:48:16 +0200 > > From: Yotam Medini > > > > Should someone would volunteer to make a Hebrew translation > > of the Emacs tutorial, how can that be coordinated? > > I don't see any sense in having a Hebrew translation of the tutorial > as long as Emacs cannot display Hebrew text in a reasonably correct > way. While Emacs cannot display Hebrew text right, the TUTORIAL.he can be converted to visual order. I understand that Emacs tutorial in Hebrew will be much more important once full Bidi support will be released. Still, there is small young Linux community, that can use Emacs to edit scripts and configuration files in Gnu/Linux. I teach a small class of kids Python programming on Gnu/Linux. The kids' English is poor. They understand enough, so they can type simple code - using English letters of course. As part of the course, I teach them basic Emacs usage. I wish I could refer them to a tutorial. So my thinking of the tutorial translation, is to explain in Hebrew how to do English text editing. May be there is also a chicken & egg situation here. The very fact that there are too few young Emacs users who understand Hebrew, is the reason that there are not enough people who can bring Bidi support in Emacs to life. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 15:25 ` Yotam Medini יותם מדיני @ 2007-02-02 15:33 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-02 16:16 ` Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-02 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 18:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2007-02-02 15:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yotam Medini; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel Yotam Medini יותם מדיני <yotam.medini@gmail.com> writes: > May be there is also a chicken & egg situation here. The very fact > that there are too few young Emacs users who understand Hebrew, is > the reason that there are not enough people who can bring Bidi > support in Emacs to life. Are you seriously suggesting that something like Bidi support could be implemented in Emacs by people having major difficulties with the language of its code comments and documentation? -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 15:33 ` David Kastrup @ 2007-02-02 16:16 ` Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-02 18:21 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Yotam Medini יותם מדיני @ 2007-02-02 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: eliz, emacs-devel On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:33:55 +0100 David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote: > Are you seriously suggesting that something like Bidi support could be > implemented in Emacs by people having major difficulties with the > language of its code comments and documentation? > > -- > David Kastrup Yes! not today, not this year, but may be in 4 years to come. Smart kids who understands only Hebrew, are less likely to overcome the learning curve of Emacs than kids who reads English fluently. If we had more 12-year old kids using Emacs Today for trivial tasks, we will have some of them doing sophisticated programming in 4 years. If they grow with Emacs and love it - they will want to contribute back. How many years are we waiting for Bidi support in Emacs? -- yotam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 16:16 ` Yotam Medini יותם מדיני @ 2007-02-02 18:21 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 18:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yotam Medini; +Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:16:24 +0200 > From: Yotam Medini =?UTF-8?B?15nXldeq150g157Xk9eZ16DXmQ==?= <yotam.medini@gmail.com> > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > How many years are we waiting for Bidi support in Emacs? At least 7 years, AFAIR. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 15:33 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-02 16:16 ` Yotam Medini יותם מדיני @ 2007-02-02 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 22:39 ` David Kastrup 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 18:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: yotam.medini, emacs-devel > From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:33:55 +0100 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Are you seriously suggesting that something like Bidi support could be > implemented in Emacs by people having major difficulties with the > language of its code comments and documentation? Understanding English prose is much more difficult than understanding code most of which is made of single English words. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 22:39 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 11:04 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2007-02-02 22:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: yotam.medini, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> >> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:33:55 +0100 >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> Are you seriously suggesting that something like Bidi support could be >> implemented in Emacs by people having major difficulties with the >> language of its code comments and documentation? > > Understanding English prose is much more difficult than understanding > code most of which is made of single English words. "code comments and documentation" are prose. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 22:39 ` David Kastrup @ 2007-02-03 11:04 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 11:11 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 11:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: yotam.medini, emacs-devel > Cc: yotam.medini@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 23:39:57 +0100 > > > > Understanding English prose is much more difficult than understanding > > code most of which is made of single English words. > > "code comments and documentation" are prose. I talked about code and comments. Documentation is hard to understand for someone who doesn't have good control of English, but the documentation doesn't say much about bidi anyway. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 11:04 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 11:11 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2007-02-03 11:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: yotam.medini, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> Cc: yotam.medini@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> >> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 23:39:57 +0100 >> > >> > Understanding English prose is much more difficult than understanding >> > code most of which is made of single English words. >> >> "code comments and documentation" are prose. > > I talked about code and comments. If you choose to change the subject, it helps your readers if you actually bother mentioning it. I talked about "code comments and documentation", and you did not bring up a different subject in your reply. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 11:11 ` David Kastrup @ 2007-02-03 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 11:47 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 11:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: yotam.medini, emacs-devel > Cc: yotam.medini@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:11:52 +0100 > > I talked about "code comments and documentation", and you did not > bring up a different subject in your reply. "Documentation" in Emacs obviously starts with the tutorial, so translating that would be the obvious first step. Witness the fact that, currently, the tutorial is the only piece of Emacs that is translated. Really, David, for someone who comes from a country where every important computer-related book is translated into German, and where most OS facilities are localized (and for a good reason), I'd expect you to understand that without me having to explain that in so many words. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 11:47 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 14:06 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2007-02-03 11:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: yotam.medini, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> Cc: yotam.medini@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> >> Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:11:52 +0100 >> >> I talked about "code comments and documentation", and you did not >> bring up a different subject in your reply. > > "Documentation" in Emacs obviously starts with the tutorial, so > translating that would be the obvious first step. You changed the topic again. How does this make "code comments and documentation" not prose? If you want to talk about something completely different from what you are replying to, there is no necessity of quoting context as if it was relevant to your point. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 11:47 ` David Kastrup @ 2007-02-03 14:06 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 14:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: yotam.medini, emacs-devel > Cc: yotam.medini@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:47:32 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > > >> Cc: yotam.medini@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > >> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > >> Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:11:52 +0100 > >> > >> I talked about "code comments and documentation", and you did not > >> bring up a different subject in your reply. > > > > "Documentation" in Emacs obviously starts with the tutorial, so > > translating that would be the obvious first step. > > You changed the topic again. No, I didn't. I've already covered the code and comments, so documentation was the last bit. > How does this make "code comments and documentation" not prose? Comments are very short and easier to understand than the documentation. Documentation, such as the tutorial and the manuals are the prose I referred to. > If you want to talk about something completely different from what > you are replying to, there is no necessity of quoting context as if > it was relevant to your point. If you want to be a pedant, with the sole purpose of having the last word, let's just end this ``discussion''. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 15:25 ` Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-02 15:33 ` David Kastrup @ 2007-02-02 18:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 18:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yotam Medini; +Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:25:51 +0200 > From: Yotam Medini =?UTF-8?B?15nXldeq150g157Xk9eZ16DXmQ==?= <yotam.medini@gmail.com> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > While Emacs cannot display Hebrew text right, the TUTORIAL.he can > be converted to visual order. Unfortunately, visual-order Hebrew is not reliably displayed in current Emacs, either. Depending on the toolkit, sometimes the words are displayed reversed (because the toolkit applies bidi reordering when it displays strings), but once you move the cursor past them, they are converted back to the visual order. I don't want to add to Emacs anything that ugly and unreliable, sorry. > I teach a small class of kids Python programming on Gnu/Linux. > The kids' English is poor. They understand enough, so they > can type simple code - using English letters of course. > As part of the course, I teach them basic Emacs usage. I wish I could > refer them to a tutorial. So my thinking of the tutorial > translation, is to explain in Hebrew how to do English text editing. I'm afraid that currently your only option is to edit the translated tutorial in OpenOffice or some such, and then print it and use the printed copy in your classes. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 18:16 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-02-02 19:12 ` Drew Adams ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-02-02 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Yotam Medini, emacs-devel >> While Emacs cannot display Hebrew text right, the TUTORIAL.he can >> be converted to visual order. > Unfortunately, visual-order Hebrew is not reliably displayed in > current Emacs, either. Indeed. In any case, I think we should encourage people to write tutorials for any language, whether it's well supported by Emacs or not. In the case of Hebrew, I think the best option is to write it "right" (using another editor) and then keep it in Emacs's repository but without offering it in the list of languages (since Emacs can't currently display it right). So as soon as we get bidi-support, we'll also get the online Hebrew tutorial. One more motivation for writing the bidi support. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* RE: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2007-02-02 19:12 ` Drew Adams 2007-02-02 20:10 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 20:04 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 22:12 ` Jason Rumney 2 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2007-02-02 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel > I think we should encourage people to write tutorials > for any language, whether it's well supported by Emacs or not. I agree strongly. However, I'd add the caveat that (I think) we agreed to revisit the existing tutorial after the release, to try to improve it in various ways. If it might change a lot, translators might prefer to translate it after the rewrite. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 19:12 ` Drew Adams @ 2007-02-02 20:10 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 20:28 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 20:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:12:32 -0800 > > > I think we should encourage people to write tutorials > > for any language, whether it's well supported by Emacs or not. > > I agree strongly. Do you read Hebrew? If not, try to imagine your beloved language hopelessly messed up by Emacs, and you will begin to understand why I don't want to see such abomination in the Emacs distribution. No way I will agree to something like that. P.S. I'm the coordinator of the Hebrew team in the Translation Project (as well as the entire team), so it's not that I don't understand the value of translating documentation. All the he.po files you can find in the GNU packages are my work. I just hate to see badly formatted Hebrew, that's all. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* RE: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 20:10 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 20:28 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2007-02-02 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel > > > I think we should encourage people to write tutorials > > > for any language, whether it's well supported by Emacs or not. > > > > I agree strongly. > > Do you read Hebrew? If not, try to imagine your beloved language > hopelessly messed up by Emacs, and you will begin to understand why I > don't want to see such abomination in the Emacs distribution. Who said anything about it being in the Emacs distribution? > No way I will agree to something like that. You also said: > If someone wants to contribute just the text, we could perhaps > keep it in admin somewhere That's what I had in mind: let people think now about translating, but don't integrate any translations into Emacs until the display can support them. I thought that was also what Stefan had in mind, but I don't know. However, I also added a caveat that we should let potential translators know that their effort might be partly wasted if the tutorial is revisited after the release. Stefan spoke not of translating, in fact, but of "writing tutorials", which I also agree with. That is, I think it would be good for people to think now about possible improvements to the Emacs tutorial. Recently, people here looked at another tutorial (with screenshots etc.), which some found useful. I say, let's get input from all quarters on how the Emacs tutorial might be improved. Input should be welcome, both translation and new tutorial ideas. You may not "agree to something like that", but that's what I meant and what I still mean. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-02-02 19:12 ` Drew Adams @ 2007-02-02 20:04 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 1:52 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-02-03 16:01 ` James Cloos 2007-02-02 22:12 ` Jason Rumney 2 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: yotam.medini, emacs-devel > Cc: Yotam Medini <yotam.medini@gmail.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> > Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:07:44 -0500 > > In the case of Hebrew, I think the best option is to write it "right" (using > another editor) One can write logical-order Hebrew in Emacs today, no need for another editor. It's just the display that is broken. > and then keep it in Emacs's repository but without offering > it in the list of languages (since Emacs can't currently display it right). I don't see how we can craft a tutorial without being able to display it, since the tutorial undergoes reformatting by Emacs, as you know. If someone wants to contribute just the text, we could perhaps keep it in admin somewhere, but I doubt that anyone would wish to work on something that will not be used for some time to come. > One more motivation for writing the bidi support. I lack time, not motivation ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 20:04 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 1:52 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-02-03 11:18 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 16:01 ` James Cloos 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2007-02-03 1:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: yotam.medini, emacs-devel >> In the case of Hebrew, I think the best option is to write it "right" (using >> another editor) > One can write logical-order Hebrew in Emacs today, no need for another > editor. It's just the display that is broken. If you want to write it with Emacs, feel free, but I personally wouldn't spend any time writing French texts on a right-to-left-only text editor, no matter how great it may otherwise be. > I don't see how we can craft a tutorial without being able to display > it, since the tutorial undergoes reformatting by Emacs, as you know. It does? No, as a matter of fact, I didn't know. And taking another look at the French tutorial, I don't see any reformatting going on. > If someone wants to contribute just the text, we could perhaps keep it > in admin somewhere, but I doubt that anyone would wish to work on > something that will not be used for some time to come. It could be printed/displayed with other tools, and thus still be usable. >> One more motivation for writing the bidi support. > I lack time, not motivation ;-) I'd hope someone *else* would jump in. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 1:52 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2007-02-03 11:18 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 11:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: yotam.medini, emacs-devel > Cc: yotam.medini@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> > Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:52:51 -0500 > > > I don't see how we can craft a tutorial without being able to display > > it, since the tutorial undergoes reformatting by Emacs, as you know. > > It does? No, as a matter of fact, I didn't know. And taking another look > at the French tutorial, I don't see any reformatting going on. I meant this part of the tutorial: <<Blank lines inserted around following line by help-with-tutorial>> [Middle of page left blank for didactic purposes. Text continues below] which is modified when the tutorial is displayed. > >> One more motivation for writing the bidi support. > > I lack time, not motivation ;-) > > I'd hope someone *else* would jump in. Me too, but after so many years, I've abandoned that hope. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 20:04 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 1:52 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2007-02-03 16:01 ` James Cloos 2007-02-03 16:21 ` David Kastrup 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: James Cloos @ 2007-02-03 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel Eli, Any idea how much work it'd take to merge the changes between the (your, right?) emacs-bidi-base and emacs-bidi branches into the emacs-unicode-2 branch? There are only 3 merge failures in src files, plus a couple in texinfo files and several in ChangeLog files. -JimC -- James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 16:01 ` James Cloos @ 2007-02-03 16:21 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 18:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2007-02-03 16:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: James Cloos; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes: > Eli, > > Any idea how much work it'd take to merge the changes between > the (your, right?) emacs-bidi-base and emacs-bidi branches into > the emacs-unicode-2 branch? > > There are only 3 merge failures in src files, plus a couple in > texinfo files and several in ChangeLog files. I don't think that this is the only issue. Eli might correct me on that, but the last time this issue came up, he clearly stated that the bidi branch was not production quality and had serious stability and performance issues. We certainly don't want it to be "merged into the emacs-unicode-2 branch" before Emacs 23 is released: emacs-unicode-2 is a major step forward and apparently close to release quality. There are also other issues which should probably be addressed when reworking the display engine for bidi, like composite character support and antialiasing, so merging the fragile bidi branch might not actually be the best tactic for going forward. At the current point of time, I think it prudent to leave Emacs-bidi on the back burner, and to start thinking about what long-term strategy to follow in a bidi-capable branch (it might well mean abandoning the current emacs-bidi approach) when emacs-unicode-2 has made it into the trunk and does not require major reworks before Emacs 23. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 16:21 ` David Kastrup @ 2007-02-03 18:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 19:12 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: cloos, emacs-devel > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 17:21:24 +0100 > > I don't think that this is the only issue. Eli might correct me on > that, but the last time this issue came up, he clearly stated that the > bidi branch was not production quality and had serious stability and > performance issues. David is right: the bidi branch is just a first attempt to make the display engine support bidirectional languages. It needs a lot of debugging to become usable. In particular, as soon as you turn on the bidi support flag, Emacs instantly crashes. > We certainly don't want it to be "merged into the > emacs-unicode-2 branch" before Emacs 23 is released: emacs-unicode-2 > is a major step forward and apparently close to release quality. I rather hope that Emacs 23 will come out with bidi support (since Unicode requires that), but that hope has no basis whatsoever. > There are also other issues which should probably be addressed when > reworking the display engine for bidi, like composite character > support and antialiasing I'm not aware of any such issues, but then the implications of bidi redisplay were never discussed in detail. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 18:42 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 19:12 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 21:01 ` James Cloos ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2007-02-03 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: cloos, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > >> We certainly don't want it to be "merged into the emacs-unicode-2 >> branch" before Emacs 23 is released: emacs-unicode-2 is a major >> step forward and apparently close to release quality. > > I rather hope that Emacs 23 will come out with bidi support (since > Unicode requires that), but that hope has no basis whatsoever. Uh, I hope that Emacs 23 will come out in this decade still... >> There are also other issues which should probably be addressed when >> reworking the display engine for bidi, like composite character >> support and antialiasing > > I'm not aware of any such issues, but then the implications of bidi > redisplay were never discussed in detail. Oh, that is not as much an implication of bidi redisplay but rather of missing display features of Emacs in general. "composite character" may be the wrong word, it is "compositing"? Things like accents that are supposed to overprint the following character. Emacs does not cater for them yet, neither does it for antialiased font display (unless we are talking isolated branches or ports). I thought that it would be probably imprudent to address those missing features in isolation from bidi support, since the solutions likely have some overlap. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 19:12 ` David Kastrup @ 2007-02-03 21:01 ` James Cloos 2007-02-04 19:00 ` James Cloos 2007-02-03 21:40 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-05 1:35 ` Kenichi Handa 2 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: James Cloos @ 2007-02-03 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel >>>>> "David" == David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: David> Oh, that is not as much an implication of bidi redisplay but rather of David> missing display features of Emacs in general. "composite character" David> may be the wrong word, it is "compositing"? Things like accents that David> are supposed to overprint the following character. David> Emacs does not cater for them yet, neither does it for antialiased David> font display Actually, the font-backend code in the unicode-2 branch handles aa and simple-compositing just fine, in my experience. At least when using the xft backend (alone; I don't run with fallback to the x backend). Handa-san's got that much working very well, though I did need to put in some effort creating a reasonably complete xft fontset. My understanding is that it also works well on the mac backend. OTOH, I've had no luck with complex composition, such as for Brahmic scripts. So the basic support for compositing seems to be there, it just needs a full set of rules for the complex scripts. Eg, everything that pango can do. (Pango is (or 'LGPL-2 'FreetypeLicence), so there shouldn't be any problem using it as a primary reference for writing the necessary lisp.) -JimC -- James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 21:01 ` James Cloos @ 2007-02-04 19:00 ` James Cloos 2007-02-05 0:52 ` Kenichi Handa 0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: James Cloos @ 2007-02-04 19:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii |> so there shouldn't be any problem using [Pango] as a primary |> reference for writing the necessary lisp.) Belay that. I just read overnight that neither pango nor icu are happy with their shaping engines for Brahmic scripts. But it seems (again, from what I just read) that qt's engine is up to par, so perhaps qt's (GPL2'ed) shaping engine can be used as a primary reference in writing an engine in lisp.... -JimC -- James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-04 19:00 ` James Cloos @ 2007-02-05 0:52 ` Kenichi Handa 2007-02-05 18:37 ` James Cloos 2007-02-10 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Kenichi Handa @ 2007-02-05 0:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: James Cloos; +Cc: eliz, emacs-devel In article <m3r6t5eoit.fsf@lugabout.jhcloos.org>, James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes: >>> so there shouldn't be any problem using [Pango] as a primary >>> reference for writing the necessary lisp.) > Belay that. I just read overnight that neither pango nor icu are > happy with their shaping engines for Brahmic scripts. > But it seems (again, from what I just read) that qt's engine is up to > par, so perhaps qt's (GPL2'ed) shaping engine can be used as a primary > reference in writing an engine in lisp.... As for a shaping engine, my plan is to equip Emacs with FLT (Font Layout Table) driver. FLT is developped by our team in AIST for writing a shaping rule by s-expressions to be used with our m17n-lib <http://www.m17n.org>. This page shows the currently supported scripts: http://www.m17n.org/m17n-lib-en/screenshots.html Attached is the FLT for Devanagari. --- Kenichi Handa handa@m17n.org ;; DEVA-OTF.flt -- Font Layout Table for Devanagari OpenType font ;; Copyright (C) 2003, 2004 ;; National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST) ;; Registration Number H15PRO112 ;; This file is part of the m17n database; a sub-part of the m17n ;; library. ;; The m17n library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or ;; modify it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License ;; as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2.1 of ;; the License, or (at your option) any later version. ;; The m17n library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, ;; but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of ;; MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU ;; Lesser General Public License for more details. ;; You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public ;; License along with the m17n library; if not, write to the Free ;; Software Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor, ;; Boston, MA 02110-1301, USA. ;;; <li> DEVA-OTF.flt ;;; ;;; For Devanagari OpenType fonts to draw the Devanagari script. (category ;; C: consonant (except for R) ;; R: consonant RA ;; n: NUKTA ;; H: HALANT ;; m: MATRA (pre) ;; u: MATRA (above) ;; b: MATRA (below) ;; p: MATRA (post) ;; A: vowel modifier (above) ;; a: vowel modifier (post) ;; S: stress sign (above) ;; s: stress sign (below) ;; V: independent vowel ;; N: ZWNJ (ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER) ;; J: ZWJ (ZERO WIDTH JOINER) ;; E: ELSE ;; (#x0900 #x097F ?E) ; ELSE (#x0901 ?A) ; SIGN CANDRABINDU (above) (#x0902 ?A) ; SIGN ANUSVARA (above) (#x0903 ?a) ; SIGN VISARGA (post) (#x0905 #x0914 ?V) ; LETTER A .. LETTER AU (#x0915 #x0939 ?C) ; LETTER KA .. LETTER HA (#x0930 ?R) ; LETTER RA (#x093C ?n) ; SIGN NUKTA (#x093D ?E) ; SIGN AVAGRAHA (#x093E #x094C ?p) ; VOWEL SIGN (post) (#x093F ?m) ; VOWEL SIGN I (pre) (#x0941 #x0944 ?b) ; VOWEL SIGN (below) (#x0945 #x0948 ?u) ; VOWEL SIGN (above) (#x094D ?H) ; SIGN VIRAMA (HALANT) (#x0950 ?E) ; OM (#x0951 #x0954 ?S) ; STRESS SIGN or TONE MARK (above) (#x0952 ?s) ; STRESS SIGN or TONE MARK (below) (#x0958 #x095E ?C) ; LETTER QA .. LETTER YYA (#x0960 ?V) ; LETTER VOCALIC RR (#x0961 ?V) ; LETTER VOCALIC LL (#x0962 #x0963 ?b) ; VOWEL SIGN (below) (#x0964 #x0970 ?E) ; DANDA .. ABBREVIATION SIGN (#x200C ?N) ; ZWNJ (#x200D ?J) ; ZWJ (#x097D ?x) ; internally used tag to indicate Reph (#x097E ?y) ; internally used tag to indicate Mpost (#x097F ?z) ; internally used tag to indicate Cbase ) ;; The first stage is to extract a syllable and re-order characters in ;; it. (generator (0 (cond ;; If [CR]H is followed by ZWNJ/ZWJ, move ZWNJ/ZWJ to the head so ;; that the later stages find it quickly. ("([CR]n?H)([NJ])" < | (2 =) (1 = *) | > ) ;; A syllable starting with RH (Reph) and ending with a vowel ;; and/or a vowel modifier. ("(RH)(([CR]n?H)*[CR]n?)([mubp][Aa]?[Ss]?|[Aa][Ss]?|[Ss])" < | (1 #x097D = =) (2 move-base-Halant) (4 reorder-post-base) | >) ;; A syllable starting with RH (Reph) and ending without a vowel ;; nor a vowel modifier. ("(RH)(([CR]n?H)*[CR]n?)(H)?" < | (1 #x097D = =) (2 move-base-Halant) (4 =) | >) ;; A syllable starting with the other consonant and ending with a ;; vowel and/or a vowel modifier. ("(([CR]n?H)*[CR]n?)([mubp][Aa]?[Ss]?|[Aa][Ss]?|[Ss])" < | (1 move-base-Halant) (3 reorder-post-base) | >) ;; A syllable starting with the other consonant and ending without ;; a vowel nor a vowel modifier. ("(([CR]n?H)*[CR]n?)(H)?" < | (1 move-base-Halant) (3 =) | >) ;; A syllable starting with an independent vowel. ("V[Aa]?[Ss]?" < | = * | > ) ("." =)) *) ;; Move Halant on a base consonant to the tail. (move-base-Halant (cond ("(([CR]n?H)*[CR]n?)(H)(R)" (1 = *) (4 =) (3 =)) (".*" = *))) ;; Re-order post modifiers. (reorder-post-base ;; 12 3 4 5 67 8 9 10 ("((m)|(u)|(b)|(p))?((A)|(a))?((S)|(s))?$" (2 =) (4 =) (10 =) (3 =) (5 =) #x097E (7 =) (9 =) (8)))) ;; The second stage is to reorder Reph and Mpre. (generator (0 (cond (" [NJ]([^ ]*) " = *) (" (x(..))([CRnH]*) " | (3 = *) (2 otf:deva=rphf) |) (" (x(..))([CRnH]*)(m?)([^y]*)y([^ ]*) " | (4 =) (3 = *) (5 = *) (2 otf:deva=rphf) (6 = *) |) (" ([CRnH][CRnH]*) " = *) (" ([CRnH][CRnH]*)(m?)([^y]*)y([^ ]*) " | (2 =) (1 = *) (3 = *) (4 = *) |) ("." =)) *)) ;; The third stage is to drive OTF tables. For the moment, we use ;; the default LangSys, and try all GSUB/GPOS features except for the ;; sequence followed by ZWNJ in which case try "nukt" and "haln" ;; features only. (generator (0 (cond (" N([^ ]*) " (1 otf:deva=nukt,haln)) (" J([^ ]*) " (1 otf:deva)) (" ([^ ]*)(CH) " (1 otf:deva=~rphf,*) (2 otf:deva=haln)) (" ([^ ]*) " (1 otf:deva=~rphf,*)) ("." \[ otf:deva=+ \] )) *)) ;; Local Variables: ;; mode: emacs-lisp ;; End: ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-05 0:52 ` Kenichi Handa @ 2007-02-05 18:37 ` James Cloos 2007-02-10 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: James Cloos @ 2007-02-05 18:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kenichi Handa; +Cc: eliz, emacs-devel >>>>> "Handa" == Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes: Handa> As for a shaping engine, my plan is to equip Emacs with FLT Handa> (Font Layout Table) driver. FLT is developped by our team Handa> in AIST for writing a shaping rule by s-expressions to be Handa> used with our m17n-lib <http://www.m17n.org>. Way cool! Especially since it is already in lisp. -JimC -- James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-05 0:52 ` Kenichi Handa 2007-02-05 18:37 ` James Cloos @ 2007-02-10 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-11 14:51 ` Kenichi Handa 1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-10 11:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kenichi Handa; +Cc: cloos, emacs-devel > From: Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> > CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:52:28 +0900 > > As for a shaping engine, my plan is to equip Emacs with FLT > (Font Layout Table) driver. FLT is developped by our team > in AIST for writing a shaping rule by s-expressions to be > used with our m17n-lib <http://www.m17n.org>. It sounds like this is a GNU/Linux-only solution, though, is that right? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-10 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-11 14:51 ` Kenichi Handa 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Kenichi Handa @ 2007-02-11 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: cloos, emacs-devel In article <u4ppu9r1l.fsf@gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > > As for a shaping engine, my plan is to equip Emacs with FLT > > (Font Layout Table) driver. FLT is developped by our team > > in AIST for writing a shaping rule by s-expressions to be > > used with our m17n-lib <http://www.m17n.org>. > It sounds like this is a GNU/Linux-only solution, though, is that > right? I'm not going to use m17n-lib itself with Emacs. Instead, my plan is to implement FLT driver (i.e., parser & interpreter) in Emacs Lisp. Then, it should be system independent. --- Kenichi Handa handa@m17n.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 19:12 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 21:01 ` James Cloos @ 2007-02-03 21:40 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-05 1:35 ` Kenichi Handa 2 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 21:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: cloos, emacs-devel > Cc: cloos@jhcloos.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 20:12:42 +0100 > > Oh, that is not as much an implication of bidi redisplay but rather of > missing display features of Emacs in general. "composite character" > may be the wrong word, it is "compositing"? Things like accents that > are supposed to overprint the following character. You mean combining character sequences (and other compatibility and canonical decompositions). Yes, Emacs does not yet fully support them. And there are several other features codified by Unicode that AFAIK we still don't support. > Emacs does not cater for them yet, neither does it for antialiased > font display (unless we are talking isolated branches or ports). I > thought that it would be probably imprudent to address those missing > features in isolation from bidi support, since the solutions likely > have some overlap. The only overlap I know of is that Hebrew and Arabic have diacriticals, so any support for combining sequences will have to include that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-03 19:12 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 21:01 ` James Cloos 2007-02-03 21:40 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-05 1:35 ` Kenichi Handa 2007-02-05 17:51 ` David Kastrup 2 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread From: Kenichi Handa @ 2007-02-05 1:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: eliz, cloos, emacs-devel In article <85r6t7f42d.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: > Oh, that is not as much an implication of bidi redisplay but rather of > missing display features of Emacs in general. "composite character" > may be the wrong word, it is "compositing"? Things like accents that > are supposed to overprint the following character. ??? If you talking about the combining characters U+0300-U+037F, they are supposed to overprint the PREVIOUS character, and emacs-unicode-2 branch already supports it. --- Kenichi Handa handa@m17n.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-05 1:35 ` Kenichi Handa @ 2007-02-05 17:51 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2007-02-05 17:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kenichi Handa; +Cc: eliz, cloos, emacs-devel Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes: > In article <85r6t7f42d.fsf@lola.goethe.zz>, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: > >> Oh, that is not as much an implication of bidi redisplay but rather of >> missing display features of Emacs in general. "composite character" >> may be the wrong word, it is "compositing"? Things like accents that >> are supposed to overprint the following character. > > ??? If you talking about the combining characters > U+0300-U+037F, they are supposed to overprint the PREVIOUS > character, and emacs-unicode-2 branch already supports it. I stand corrected. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-02 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-02-02 19:12 ` Drew Adams 2007-02-02 20:04 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-02 22:12 ` Jason Rumney 2 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Jason Rumney @ 2007-02-02 22:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, Yotam Medini, emacs-devel Stefan Monnier wrote: > Indeed. In any case, I think we should encourage people to write tutorials > for any language, whether it's well supported by Emacs or not. > I agree. It would be a shame if we completed the bidi support and did not have a Hebrew tutorial because we had turned down the offer now. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
* Re: Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial 2007-02-01 23:48 Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-02 12:57 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-02 13:13 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2007-02-03 11:19 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2007-02-03 11:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Yotam Medini; +Cc: emacs-devel Should someone would volunteer to make a Hebrew translation of the Emacs tutorial, how can that be coordinated? He just has to (1) make the translation and (2) send me email about it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2007-02-11 14:51 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 37+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2007-02-01 23:48 Hebrew xlation of Emacs tutorial Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-02 12:57 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-02 13:13 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 15:25 ` Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-02 15:33 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-02 16:16 ` Yotam Medini יותם מדיני 2007-02-02 18:21 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 22:39 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 11:04 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 11:11 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 11:47 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 14:06 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 18:16 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-02-02 19:12 ` Drew Adams 2007-02-02 20:10 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-02 20:28 ` Drew Adams 2007-02-02 20:04 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 1:52 ` Stefan Monnier 2007-02-03 11:18 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 16:01 ` James Cloos 2007-02-03 16:21 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 18:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-03 19:12 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-03 21:01 ` James Cloos 2007-02-04 19:00 ` James Cloos 2007-02-05 0:52 ` Kenichi Handa 2007-02-05 18:37 ` James Cloos 2007-02-10 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-11 14:51 ` Kenichi Handa 2007-02-03 21:40 ` Eli Zaretskii 2007-02-05 1:35 ` Kenichi Handa 2007-02-05 17:51 ` David Kastrup 2007-02-02 22:12 ` Jason Rumney 2007-02-03 11:19 ` Richard Stallman
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