From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Bozhidar Batsov" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Brand new clojure support in Emacs ;-) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2023 23:06:14 +0200 Message-ID: <84cb2cea-ffd5-424b-b6e9-19f04f162207@app.fastmail.com> References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87a5uw9ivs.fsf@posteo.net> <87ttt42gna.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87wmy080kn.fsf@posteo.net> <83v8djcydl.fsf@gnu.org> <87350ndquw.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83350ncbns.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyzrjbd8.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83zg2vav46.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j99304.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87zg2hsyrd.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87h6ontwfv.fsf@posteo.net> <87r0nlngmo.fsf@posteo.net> <2d6a9558-4a4f-47e8-9122-62c7665e5f73@app.fastmail.com> <87ledn1dyu.fsf@posteo.net> <8bf9ac13-d620-4b5c-8e03-de21c4d85506@app.fastmail.com> <87cyyz1by6.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=6743783668224352b3d7c0139849e390 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310027 Archived-At: --6743783668224352b3d7c0139849e390 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Other than these points, is the CA the only major issue. Or to put it > differently, if you could state the conditions for clojure-mode to be > distributed with Emacs, what would your conditions be? My point here = is > just to clarify if there is a solution to this discussion -- in which > case I think it is worth continuing it -- of if you /want to not want > to/ have clojure-mode added to core Emacs? If what you said is true (and I guess it is, given that Eli wrote more o= r less the same), then probably the CA will be the main obstacle. I'll n= eed to discuss this further with the other members of clojure-emacs, as = me and Danny are the only people on emacs-devel to my knowledge. In gene= ral - tracking down all the contributors and getting them to sign the CA= will certainly take some time, but I'm guessing we're not in a rush. On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:03 PM, Philip Kaludercic wrote: > "Bozhidar Batsov" writes: >=20 > >> Of course, it would be even better if you and your co-maintainers c= ould > >> be convinced to distribute clojure-mode along with Emacs (again, th= is > >> doesn't mean development must be moved away from GitHub), but just = like > >> with CC-mode, Org, cperl, Modus-Themes, releases would just have to= be > >> synchronised with the core. But IIUC, your main issues is the copy= right > >> assignment and the concern that it might limit who might contribute, > >> right? > > > > Other than the contributor agreement there's development overhead to= consider: > > > > - where are issues reported? I don't want to use the Emacs issue > > tracker, but that'd be unavoidable for something built-in, so instead > > of having one issue tracker you end up with two (one of which I real= ly > > dislike) > > - some patches will be submitted on GitHub, some on emacs-devel - I = highly doubt that all the clojure-mode maintainers would be willing to d= eal with this > > - discussions related to problems/ideas would be happening in differ= ent places >=20 > To my knowledge, this is not an issue with the packages I have > mentioned. Of course there are exceptions, but to my knowledge > basically all conversation about org-mode happens on their mailing > lists, basically all conversation about the modus themes, happen on > Prot's mailing list/issue trackers. >=20 > > - there's also so overhead of keeping the GitHub repo and the code i= n Emacs in sync >=20 > This is a minor point, IMO, and if it is relevant, it will usually be > because of a downstream change that should be upstreamed anyway > (e.g. someone replaced all occurrences of an inefficient construct, and > happens to do so in clojure-mode as well). >=20 > > I can go on and on about this - hybrid development models simply come > > with a lot of overhead.=20 >=20 > The mistake I want to emphasise here is that this is not a "hybrid > development model". Development continues on your own terms, and just > gets copied over into emacs.git on a regular basis. >=20 > > I get that here many people think that GitHub > > is the root of all evil, but political preferences aside - it's the > > largest forge in the world by a huge margin and I think it provides > > unique benefits to projects that can't be replicated elsewhere. At > > least not today. >=20 > While I disagree, especially with GitHubs recent 2FA push, IIUC I just > want to clarify that this is not what is being discussed. >=20 > Other than these points, is the CA the only major issue. Or to put it > differently, if you could state the conditions for clojure-mode to be > distributed with Emacs, what would your conditions be? My point here = is > just to clarify if there is a solution to this discussion -- in which > case I think it is worth continuing it -- of if you /want to not want > to/ have clojure-mode added to core Emacs? >=20 > > > > On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 5:19 PM, Philip Kaludercic wrote: > >> "Bozhidar Batsov" writes: > >>=20 > >> >> I would guess that anyone who is seriously interested in working= with > >> >> Clojure, would install the proper major mode and the proper pack= age > >> > > >> > That's one of the things that bother me the most in the conversat= ions > >> > so far - lots of people tell us what the Clojure users need, but = other > >> > than me and Danny, no one here has any real interest in Clojure. = :-) > >> > Without an understanding of Clojure and its tooling ecosystem (and > >> > it's history) it's hard to make good suggestions about what makes > >> > sense and what doesn't. > >>=20 > >> This suggestion comes from a different point of view, namely that i= f I > >> open a clojure file, that I have anything else but fundamental mode= to > >> structure the file. And if it is true that LSP integration could > >> provide xref, imenu, capf, etc. support, one would come a long way = for > >> modest needs with very little code. Just like with the common-lisp > >> mode, the support is of course better if you install SLIME or Sly, = but > >> having some basic OOTB support is already a good thing and all this > >> thread started out with. > >>=20 > >> Of course, it would be even better if you and your co-maintainers c= ould > >> be convinced to distribute clojure-mode along with Emacs (again, th= is > >> doesn't mean development must be moved away from GitHub), but just = like > >> with CC-mode, Org, cperl, Modus-Themes, releases would just have to= be > >> synchronised with the core. But IIUC, your main issues is the copy= right > >> assignment and the concern that it might limit who might contribute, > >> right? > >>=20 > >> > I already wrote we tried the "thin layer on top of lisp-mode" and= this > >> > didn't worked out great in the past. Of course, people are welcom= e to > >> > try and learn from experience themselves if they thing they can do > >> > things better/differently. > >> > > >> > On Wed, Aug 30, 2023, at 9:17 AM, Philip Kaludercic wrote: > >> >> Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > >> >>=20 > >> >> > On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 8:26=E2=80=AFAM Philip Kaludercic wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Richard Stallman writes: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please cons= ider ]]] > >> >> >> > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemi= es, ]]] > >> >> >> > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's e= xample. ]]] > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > It appears that there is no clojure-mode command in core Em= acs. > >> >> >> > There is a Clojure mode package, but it is in NonGNU ELPA. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I think that language is important enough that, notwithstan= ding not > >> >> >> > really being similar to Lisp, we ought to have a major mode= to support it. > >> >> >> > Would someone please work on that? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I had brought this up in the recent clojure-ts-mode thread, t= hat I > >> >> >> assume you are referring to. Sadly, I have no experience wit= h the > >> >> >> language, but one idea might be to extend lisp-data-mode by w= hatever the > >> >> > > >> >> > I don't know if this counts as "work on that" but here's two i= nteresting lines > >> >> > Elisp: > >> >> > > >> >> > (define-derived-mode clojure-mode lisp-data-mode "Clojure" > >> >> > "Barebones Clojure") > >> >> > (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist '("\\.clj" . clojure-mode)) > >> >>=20 > >> >> I suggested something along these lines up the thread, but didn'= t try it > >> >> out myself. Nice to see that the idea works. To avoid confusio= n, I > >> >> think it might be a good idea to not call this `clojure-mode' as= well, > >> >> but something like "clojure-proto-mode" or "primitive-clojure-mo= de". > >> >>=20 > >> >> > Since it is a lisp dialect many things works here, like indent= ation, > >> >> > symbol recognition, parenthesis balancing, C-M navigation, and= thing-at-point. > >> >> > > >> >> > And then there's LSP, right? > >> >> > > >> >> > So I installed clojure-lsp from here: > >> >> > https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/clojure-lsp-bin > >> >> > > >> >> > I created a hello world project with the "lein" tool, git init= , found the > >> >> > src/helloworld/core.clj inside it, pressed M-x eglot and sudde= nly I had > >> >> > at-point-documentation, diagnostics, lots of refactorings, com= pletion, etc. > >> >> > > >> >> > The thing that's a bit minimal is the syntax highlighting, but= it's > >> >> > not that bad either IMHO. Eglot doesn't yet support LSP-mandat= ed syntax > >> >> > highlighting. I have no idea what it takes to add TreeSitter = support > >> >> > to such a bare-bones mode (but shouldn't it be really easy lik= e mapping > >> >> > syntactic symbols to faces?) > >> >> > > >> >> > No idea if this works with the CIDER or SLIME backends for clo= jure. > >> >> > Don't ask me to test any more cause I've just uninstalled it a= ll > >> >> > but any clojurians rading can have a go. > >> >>=20 > >> >> I would guess that anyone who is seriously interested in working= with > >> >> Clojure, would install the proper major mode and the proper pack= ages. > >> >>=20 > >> >> > Jo=C3=A3o > >> >>=20 > >> >>=20 > >>=20 >=20 >=20 --6743783668224352b3d7c0139849e390 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Other than these points, is the CA the o= nly major issue.  Or to put it
differently, if you co= uld state the conditions for clojure-mode to be
distribute= d with Emacs, what would your conditions be?  My point here is
<= /div>
just to clarify if there is a solution to this discussion -- i= n which
case I think it is worth continuing it -- of if yo= u /want to not want
to/ have clojure-mode added to core Em= acs?

If what you said is true = (and I guess it is, given that Eli wrote more or less the same), then pr= obably the CA will be the main obstacle. I'll need to discuss this furth= er with the other members of clojure-emacs, as me and Danny are the only= people on emacs-devel to my knowledge. In general - tracking down all t= he contributors and getting them to sign the CA will certainly take some= time, but I'm guessing we're not in a rush.

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:03 PM, Philip Kaludercic wrote:
"Bozhidar Batsov" <<= a href=3D"mailto:bozhidar@batsov.dev">bozhidar@batsov.dev> writes= :

>> Of course, it would be even bett= er if you and your co-maintainers could
>> be convin= ced to distribute clojure-mode along with Emacs (again, this
>> doesn't mean development must be moved away from GitHub), bu= t just like
>> with CC-mode, Org, cperl, Modus-Theme= s, releases would just have to be
>> synchronised wi= th the core.  But IIUC, your main issues is the copyright
=
>> assignment and the concern that it might limit who might c= ontribute,
>> right?
>
> Other than the contributor agreement there's development overhead= to consider:
>
> - where are issues r= eported? I don't want to use the Emacs issue
> tracker,= but that'd be unavoidable for something built-in, so instead
<= div>> of having one issue tracker you end up with two (one of which I= really
> dislike)
> - some patches wi= ll be submitted on GitHub, some on emacs-devel - I highly doubt that all= the clojure-mode maintainers would be willing to deal with this
> - discussions related to problems/ideas would be happening i= n different places

To my knowledge, this is= not an issue with the packages I have
mentioned.  Of= course there are exceptions, but to my knowledge
basicall= y all conversation about org-mode happens on their mailing
lists, basically all conversation about the modus themes, happen on
=
Prot's mailing list/issue trackers.

<= div>> - there's also so overhead of keeping the GitHub repo and the c= ode in Emacs in sync

This is a minor point,= IMO, and if it is relevant, it will usually be
because of= a downstream change that should be upstreamed anyway
(e.g= . someone replaced all occurrences of an inefficient construct, and
<= /div>
happens to do so in clojure-mode as well).

<= /div>
> I can go on and on about this - hybrid development models= simply come
> with a lot of overhead. 
<= div>
The mistake I want to emphasise here is that this is = not a "hybrid
development model".  Development contin= ues on your own terms, and just
gets copied over into emac= s.git on a regular basis.

>  &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;          I get that h= ere many people think that GitHub
> is the root of all = evil, but political preferences aside - it's the
> larg= est forge in the world by a huge margin and I think it provides
> unique benefits to projects that can't be replicated elsewher= e. At
> least not today.

W= hile I disagree, especially with GitHubs recent 2FA push, IIUC I just
want to clarify that this is not what is being discussed.

Other than these points, is the CA the only m= ajor issue.  Or to put it
differently, if you could s= tate the conditions for clojure-mode to be
distributed wit= h Emacs, what would your conditions be?  My point here is
=
just to clarify if there is a solution to this discussion -- in whi= ch
case I think it is worth continuing it -- of if you /wa= nt to not want
to/ have clojure-mode added to core Emacs?<= br>

>
> On Sun, Sep 3, 2023= , at 5:19 PM, Philip Kaludercic wrote:
>> "Bozhidar = Batsov" <bozhidar@batsov.dev> writes:
>> > than = me and Danny, no one here has any real interest in Clojure. :-)
>> > Without an understanding of Clojure and its tooling = ecosystem (and
>> > it's history) it's hard to ma= ke good suggestions about what makes
>> > sense a= nd what doesn't.
>> 
>> Thi= s suggestion comes from a different point of view, namely that if I
<= /div>
>> open a clojure file, that I have anything else but fu= ndamental mode to
>> structure the file.  And i= f it is true that LSP integration could
>> provide x= ref, imenu, capf, etc. support, one would come a long way for
<= div>>> modest needs with very little code.  Just like with th= e common-lisp
>> mode, the support is of course bett= er if you install SLIME or Sly, but
>> having some b= asic OOTB support is already a good thing and all this
>= ;> thread started out with.
>> 
>> Of course, it would be even better if you and your co-maintai= ners could
>> >> > On Fri,= Aug 25, 2023 at 8:26=E2=80=AFAM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> wrote:
>= ;> >> >>
>> >> >> Richard= Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:=
>> >> >>
>> >>= ; >> > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please c= onsider    ]]]
>> >> >> &= gt; [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, =     ]]]
>> >> >> > [[[= foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
<= /div>
>> >> >> >
>> >>= ; >> > It appears that there is no clojure-mode command in core= Emacs.
>> >> >> > There is a Clojure= mode package, but it is in NonGNU ELPA.
>> >>= >> >
>> >> >> > I think tha= t language is important enough that, notwithstanding not
&= gt;> >> >> > really being similar to Lisp, we ought to= have a major mode to support it.
>> >> >&g= t; > Would someone please work on that?
>> >&g= t; >>
>> >> >> I had brought this = up in the recent clojure-ts-mode thread, that I
>> &= gt;> >> assume you are referring to.  Sadly, I have no exp= erience with the
>> >> >> language, but = one idea might be to extend lisp-data-mode by whatever the
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't kno= w if this counts as "work on that" but here's two interesting lines
<= /div>
>> >> > Elisp:
>> >> = >
>> >> >   (define-derived-mo= de clojure-mode lisp-data-mode "Clojure"
>> >>= > "Barebones Clojure")
>> >> > &nb= sp; (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist '("\\.clj" . clojure-mode))
<= div>>> >> 
>> >> I suggested = something along these lines up the thread, but didn't try it
>> >> out myself.  Nice to see that the idea works.&= nbsp; To avoid confusion, I
>> >> think it mig= ht be a good idea to not call this `clojure-mode' as well,
>> >> but something like "clojure-proto-mode" or "primitive= -clojure-mode".
>> >> 
>= > >> > Since it is a lisp dialect many things works here, li= ke indentation,
>> >> > symbol recognition,= parenthesis balancing, C-M navigation, and thing-at-point.
>> >> >
>> >> > And then t= here's LSP, right?
>> >> >
&g= t;> >> > So I installed clojure-lsp from here:
>> >> > https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/clojure-lsp-bin
>> >> >
>> >> = > I created a hello world project with the "lein" tool, git init, fou= nd the
>> >> > src/helloworld/core.clj insi= de it, pressed M-x eglot and suddenly I had
>> >&= gt; > at-point-documentation, diagnostics, lots of refactorings, comp= letion, etc.
>> >> >
>>= >> > The thing that's a bit minimal is the syntax highlighting= , but it's
>> >> > not that bad either IMHO= . Eglot doesn't yet support LSP-mandated syntax
>> &= gt;> > highlighting.  I have no idea what it takes to add Tre= eSitter support
>> >> > to such a bare-bone= s mode (but shouldn't it be really easy like mapping
>&= gt; >> > syntactic symbols to faces?)
>> &g= t;> >
>> >> > No idea if this works w= ith the CIDER or SLIME backends for clojure.
>> >= > > Don't ask me to test any more cause I've just uninstalled it a= ll
>> >> > but any clojurians rading can ha= ve a go.
>> >> 
>> &g= t;> I would guess that anyone who is seriously interested in working = with
>> >> Clojure, would install the proper m= ajor mode and the proper packages.
>> >> =
>> >> > Jo=C3=A3o
>> &= gt;> 
>> >> 
>&g= t; 



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