* Why timers are now catching errors
@ 2013-01-13 13:24 Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 14:29 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Thierry Volpiatto @ 2013-01-13 13:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Hi,
is there a particular reason to catch errors in timers functions ?
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(condition-case-unless-debug err
;; Timer functions should not change the current buffer.
;; If they do, all kinds of nasty surprises can happen,
;; and it can be hellish to track down their source.
(save-current-buffer
(apply (timer--function timer) (timer--args timer)))
(error (message "Error in timer: %S" err)))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
Timer functions may return errors or diverses different values
at one time and next time no errors etc...
This change will break many commands using timers.
This happen in `timer-event-handler', hope this will not be merged in
24.3...
--
Thierry
Get my Gnupg key:
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 13:24 Why timers are now catching errors Thierry Volpiatto
@ 2013-01-13 14:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-01-13 14:54 ` Thierry Volpiatto
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2013-01-13 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thierry Volpiatto; +Cc: emacs-devel
> This change will break many commands using timers.
Which part of the change?
> This happen in `timer-event-handler', hope this will not be merged in
> 24.3...
No, it's only for trunk,
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 14:29 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2013-01-13 14:54 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 15:34 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Thierry Volpiatto @ 2013-01-13 14:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> This change will break many commands using timers.
You should read "annoy", it break nothing, just send repeatedly an
annoying message. (See eldoc-eval.el)
But maybe you are intoducing (temporarily) such code to improve some
timer functions running in emacs ?
> Which part of the change?
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(condition-case-unless-debug err
;; Timer functions should not change the current buffer.
;; If they do, all kinds of nasty surprises can happen,
;; and it can be hellish to track down their source.
(save-current-buffer
(apply (timer--function timer) (timer--args timer)))
(error (message "Error in timer: %S" err)))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
was
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(condition-case nil [...] (error nil))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>> This happen in `timer-event-handler', hope this will not be merged in
>> 24.3...
>
> No, it's only for trunk,
Good, thanks.
--
Thierry
Get my Gnupg key:
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 14:54 ` Thierry Volpiatto
@ 2013-01-13 15:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-01-13 15:51 ` Thierry Volpiatto
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2013-01-13 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thierry Volpiatto; +Cc: emacs-devel
>>> This change will break many commands using timers.
> You should read "annoy", it break nothing, just send repeatedly an
> annoying message. (See eldoc-eval.el)
Ah, so the problem is the `message' call?
If so, that's easy to fix: wrap the timer's code inside its own
condition-case to catch the error before timer.el does.
> But maybe you are intoducing (temporarily) such code to improve some
> timer functions running in emacs ?
It's definitely not temporary, no. Silently dropping such errors makes
tracking down bugs much harder, so it's here to stay.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 15:34 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2013-01-13 15:51 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 15:55 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 22:50 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Thierry Volpiatto @ 2013-01-13 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>>>> This change will break many commands using timers.
>> You should read "annoy", it break nothing, just send repeatedly an
>> annoying message. (See eldoc-eval.el)
>
> Ah, so the problem is the `message' call?
> If so, that's easy to fix: wrap the timer's code inside its own
> condition-case to catch the error before timer.el does.
Of course I can do that. (Already done locally)
>> But maybe you are intoducing (temporarily) such code to improve some
>> timer functions running in emacs ?
>
> It's definitely not temporary, no. Silently dropping such errors makes
> tracking down bugs much harder, so it's here to stay.
Hmm, I see, what about sending such messages only when `debug-on-error' is
enabled ?
>
> Stefan
--
Thierry
Get my Gnupg key:
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 15:51 ` Thierry Volpiatto
@ 2013-01-13 15:55 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 17:30 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 22:50 ` Stefan Monnier
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Thierry Volpiatto @ 2013-01-13 15:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com> writes:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>>>>> This change will break many commands using timers.
>>> You should read "annoy", it break nothing, just send repeatedly an
>>> annoying message. (See eldoc-eval.el)
>>
>> Ah, so the problem is the `message' call?
>> If so, that's easy to fix: wrap the timer's code inside its own
>> condition-case to catch the error before timer.el does.
> Of course I can do that. (Already done locally)
>
>>> But maybe you are intoducing (temporarily) such code to improve some
>>> timer functions running in emacs ?
>>
>> It's definitely not temporary, no. Silently dropping such errors makes
>> tracking down bugs much harder, so it's here to stay.
> Hmm, I see, what about sending such messages only when `debug-on-error' is
> enabled ?
Like this (working fine here):
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(condition-case-unless-debug err
;; Timer functions should not change the current buffer.
;; If they do, all kinds of nasty surprises can happen,
;; and it can be hellish to track down their source.
(save-current-buffer
(apply (timer--function timer) (timer--args timer)))
(error (and debug-on-error (message "Error in timer: %S" err))))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
--
Thierry
Get my Gnupg key:
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 15:55 ` Thierry Volpiatto
@ 2013-01-13 17:30 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 18:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Thierry Volpiatto @ 2013-01-13 17:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com> writes:
> Like this (working fine here):
>
> (condition-case-unless-debug err
> ;; Timer functions should not change the current buffer.
> ;; If they do, all kinds of nasty surprises can happen,
> ;; and it can be hellish to track down their source.
> (save-current-buffer
> (apply (timer--function timer) (timer--args timer)))
> (error (and debug-on-error (message "Error in timer: %S" err))))
I wanted to fix this locally in elpa but bzr crash after some time (as usual):
bzr branch bzr+ssh://thierryvolpiatto@bzr.savannah.gnu.org/emacs/elpa
=>bzr: ERROR: exceptions.AssertionError: ('not present: %r', StaticTuple('', '', 'TREE_ROOT'))
--
Thierry
Get my Gnupg key:
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 17:30 ` Thierry Volpiatto
@ 2013-01-13 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 18:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2013-01-13 18:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thierry Volpiatto; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:30:08 +0100
>
> I wanted to fix this locally in elpa but bzr crash after some time (as usual):
>
> bzr branch bzr+ssh://thierryvolpiatto@bzr.savannah.gnu.org/emacs/elpa
> =>bzr: ERROR: exceptions.AssertionError: ('not present: %r', StaticTuple('', '', 'TREE_ROOT'))
Try "bzr up".
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 17:30 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2013-01-13 18:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 18:38 ` Thierry Volpiatto
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2013-01-13 18:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thierry Volpiatto; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:30:08 +0100
>
> I wanted to fix this locally in elpa but bzr crash after some time (as usual):
>
> bzr branch bzr+ssh://thierryvolpiatto@bzr.savannah.gnu.org/emacs/elpa
> =>bzr: ERROR: exceptions.AssertionError: ('not present: %r', StaticTuple('', '', 'TREE_ROOT'))
Try "bzr up" inside the newly-created 'elpa' branch.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 18:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2013-01-13 18:38 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 18:52 ` Thierry Volpiatto
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Thierry Volpiatto @ 2013-01-13 18:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
>> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:30:08 +0100
>>
>> I wanted to fix this locally in elpa but bzr crash after some time (as usual):
>>
>> bzr branch bzr+ssh://thierryvolpiatto@bzr.savannah.gnu.org/emacs/elpa
>> =>bzr: ERROR: exceptions.AssertionError: ('not present: %r', StaticTuple('', '', 'TREE_ROOT'))
>
> Try "bzr up" inside the newly-created 'elpa' branch.
Thanks, it worked.
--
Thierry
Get my Gnupg key:
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 18:38 ` Thierry Volpiatto
@ 2013-01-13 18:52 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 19:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 22:55 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Thierry Volpiatto @ 2013-01-13 18:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com> writes:
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:30:08 +0100
>>>
>>> I wanted to fix this locally in elpa but bzr crash after some time (as usual):
>>>
>>> bzr branch bzr+ssh://thierryvolpiatto@bzr.savannah.gnu.org/emacs/elpa
>>> =>bzr: ERROR: exceptions.AssertionError: ('not present: %r', StaticTuple('', '', 'TREE_ROOT'))
>>
>> Try "bzr up" inside the newly-created 'elpa' branch.
> Thanks, it worked.
Oops no, seems this funny tool have deleted the file instead of commiting.
--
Thierry
Get my Gnupg key:
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 18:52 ` Thierry Volpiatto
@ 2013-01-13 19:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 19:07 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 22:55 ` Stefan Monnier
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2013-01-13 19:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thierry Volpiatto; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:52:23 +0100
>
> >> Try "bzr up" inside the newly-created 'elpa' branch.
> > Thanks, it worked.
> Oops no, seems this funny tool have deleted the file instead of commiting.
What funny tool? what file did it delete?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 19:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2013-01-13 19:07 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 20:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Thierry Volpiatto @ 2013-01-13 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
>> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:52:23 +0100
>>
>> >> Try "bzr up" inside the newly-created 'elpa' branch.
>> > Thanks, it worked.
>> Oops no, seems this funny tool have deleted the file instead of commiting.
>
> What funny tool?
bzr
> what file did it delete?
eldoc-eval.el
--
Thierry
Get my Gnupg key:
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 19:07 ` Thierry Volpiatto
@ 2013-01-13 20:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 20:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2013-01-13 20:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thierry Volpiatto; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:07:09 +0100
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> >> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
> >> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:52:23 +0100
> >>
> >> >> Try "bzr up" inside the newly-created 'elpa' branch.
> >> > Thanks, it worked.
> >> Oops no, seems this funny tool have deleted the file instead of commiting.
> >
> > What funny tool?
> bzr
>
> > what file did it delete?
> eldoc-eval.el
OK, I must admit that the "bzr up" trick came from Stefan, so maybe I
misunderstood something.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 20:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2013-01-13 20:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2013-01-13 20:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: thierry.volpiatto; +Cc: emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:05:22 +0200
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> > From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:07:09 +0100
> >
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> >
> > >> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
> > >> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:52:23 +0100
> > >>
> > >> >> Try "bzr up" inside the newly-created 'elpa' branch.
> > >> > Thanks, it worked.
> > >> Oops no, seems this funny tool have deleted the file instead of commiting.
> > >
> > > What funny tool?
> > bzr
> >
> > > what file did it delete?
> > eldoc-eval.el
>
> OK, I must admit that the "bzr up" trick came from Stefan, so maybe I
> misunderstood something.
Here's what "works for me":
bzr branch bzr+ssh://thierryvolpiatto@bzr.savannah.gnu.org/emacs/elpa
cd elpa
rm -rf packages
bzr revert
(Of course, I used my Savannah username, not yours.)
The only problem is, "bzr check" after the above reports "35
inconsistent parents", which I don't understand. Anybody?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 19:07 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 20:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2013-01-13 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 20:31 ` Thierry Volpiatto
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2013-01-13 20:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thierry Volpiatto; +Cc: emacs-devel
> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:07:09 +0100
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> >> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
> >> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:52:23 +0100
> >>
> >> >> Try "bzr up" inside the newly-created 'elpa' branch.
> >> > Thanks, it worked.
> >> Oops no, seems this funny tool have deleted the file instead of commiting.
> >
> > What funny tool?
> bzr
>
> > what file did it delete?
> eldoc-eval.el
I think I restored it now, but without your change, whatever it was.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2013-01-13 20:31 ` Thierry Volpiatto
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Thierry Volpiatto @ 2013-01-13 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
>> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:07:09 +0100
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>> >> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
>> >> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:52:23 +0100
>> >>
>> >> >> Try "bzr up" inside the newly-created 'elpa' branch.
>> >> > Thanks, it worked.
>> >> Oops no, seems this funny tool have deleted the file instead of commiting.
>> >
>> > What funny tool?
>> bzr
>>
>> > what file did it delete?
>> eldoc-eval.el
>
> I think I restored it now, but without your change, whatever it was.
Ok thanks.
--
Thierry
Get my Gnupg key:
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 18:52 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 19:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2013-01-13 22:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-01-13 23:03 ` chad
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2013-01-13 22:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thierry Volpiatto; +Cc: emacs-devel
> Oops no, seems this funny tool have deleted the file instead of commiting.
I recommend you always do a "bzr diff" (or cvs diff, git diff, ...)
before committing anything. That saved me many times.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 22:55 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2013-01-13 23:03 ` chad
2013-01-14 1:28 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: chad @ 2013-01-13 23:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Development
On 13 Jan 2013, at 14:55, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>> Oops no, seems this funny tool have deleted the file instead of commiting.
>
> I recommend you always do a "bzr diff" (or cvs diff, git diff, ...)
> before committing anything. That saved me many times.
FWIW, I'm unable to check out elpa, getting the same bzr error I
get every time I try, basically since the repository was created.
I reported the bug again today, but since my records suggest I
first reported the bug 2 years ago, I don't hold out much hope of
it being fixed before we abandon bazaar.
~Chad
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Why timers are now catching errors
2013-01-13 15:51 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 15:55 ` Thierry Volpiatto
@ 2013-01-13 22:50 ` Stefan Monnier
1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2013-01-13 22:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Thierry Volpiatto; +Cc: emacs-devel
> Hmm, I see, what about sending such messages only when `debug-on-error' is
> enabled ?
No, when debug-on-error is enabled, you already get a backtrace, so
there's no need for an additional message.
But the point is that such errors (and hence messages) should be rare
and correspond to actual real problems that need to be fixed.
For "normal errors", the timer's code should catch/silence the error
rather than let it get to timer.el.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2013-01-14 1:28 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2013-01-13 13:24 Why timers are now catching errors Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 14:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-01-13 14:54 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 15:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-01-13 15:51 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 15:55 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 17:30 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 18:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 18:38 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 18:52 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 19:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 19:07 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 20:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 20:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-01-13 20:31 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2013-01-13 22:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-01-13 23:03 ` chad
2013-01-14 1:28 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-01-13 22:50 ` Stefan Monnier
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