From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Obscure error/warning/information message from git pull Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 19:54:50 +0200 Message-ID: <83zjbrc9p1.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20141114120604.GA3859@acm.acm> <87389mkjwo.fsf@thinkpad-t440p.tsdh.org> <20141114141434.GM3565@embecosm.com> <20141114180521.GA3168@acm.acm> <20141114230235.GF3168@acm.acm> <87r3x3mg5t.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <838ujbdup2.fsf@gnu.org> <87y4rbjf31.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1416160562 8173 80.91.229.3 (16 Nov 2014 17:56:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:56:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 16 18:55:54 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq43F-0002W9-H1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:55:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44621 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq43D-0006Vl-6a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 12:55:51 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36812) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq42g-0006Uj-3R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 12:55:24 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq42a-0003yk-8O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 12:55:18 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:56532) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq42R-0003jb-Kr; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 12:55:03 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NF500D0087SI600@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 19:55:02 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NF500CBC8FPRSB0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 19:55:02 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <87y4rbjf31.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:177329 Archived-At: > From: David Kastrup > Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:16:34 +0100 >=20 > It's not that different from Emacs itself where a lot of defaults a= nd > options and commands are "user-friendly" but, in contrast to other > "user-friendly" editors, when trying to solve real-world tasks on y= our > own you are likely going to run into complexity and Elisp leaking i= n > your face. So it's not all that rare when demonstrating the user > friendliness of Emacs, there are the occasional 10=A0seconds where = you > have to ask your audience to look away for a moment. >=20 > Git workflows with the default commands are rather close to the > "plumbing" and need to refer to it at times. As a result, it's fai= rly > easy to run into "look away for a minute" territory. So "I=A0don't= want > to learn about internals" may be even less successful in the long r= un > than "I don't want to learn about Elisp" is with Emacs, and there i= s > less of a tradition with Git over Emacs of having others around who= have > built turnkey applications for your workflows. I was talking about newbies starting to use Git. Newbies, in Emacs and Git alike, start with copying cookbook-like recipes without deep understanding of the internals. Later they learn more. But even before that, they need some mental model of what they are doing. Tha= t model does not need to be exact as far as details go, but it must grasp the main concepts. I'm saying that brainwashing newbies with implementation details, and especially insisting on the point that Git is unlike anything else they are familiar with, is counter-productive. It just raises one more high obstacle for them to negotiate, unnecessarily. Let them ge= t to that in their due time. Meanwhile, if they can successfully apply familiar concepts, let them.