From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 19:16:09 +0300 Message-ID: <83zgin3zcm.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87leuca7v7.fsf@disroot.org> <87czfopmsd.fsf@gnu.org> <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <83o7z47m7y.fsf@gnu.org> <8735gfs3is.fsf@localhost> <838rq75jhg.fsf@gnu.org> <87fskfqj97.fsf@localhost> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5378"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: theophilusx@gmail.com, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ihor Radchenko Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 08 18:17:28 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nyyN6-00015n-9I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 18:17:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53982 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyyN5-0002ss-2n for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 12:17:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56366) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyyLx-0008Td-EN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 12:16:17 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:37362) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyyLv-0002r9-TQ; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 12:16:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=/0Of98VrXK7HGRLNNkSjLqhNM+bH8Nrg+IYmaD+D+uk=; b=db4od86o5At6 dO6gmfyqwDRy73Rk/MWqHBWdJmk12bXMnbj6SCXg69NhONNQnXWnilPcFeAgyB6Ls1D+ff4YGP/Zz 1PQg66TRSTy7lGnpLfdHAku34ZsDPzhlPTIyqGiFpUlh83Bnt2zeMOJu3LDQ7bPDo1vin+gEg/Yli BNbhRtEsFuIQS1drCTHMfj8yDr2X6dsS6qz2ubs5vi7fU8jNgDaCb8PVuw45EUDqP+dM4DuqJEnEX uw8wDM7S2H6iIjGH3w9rxi2D1FDA5qmvwjtwhz6XPJ9e7nG9c3uciDmvSgerqoiFH/4B6gk9UzRKv 2O/me/fdB1y7EtAh7nOSCg==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3733 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyyLv-0000e7-BH; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 12:16:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87fskfqj97.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Wed, 08 Jun 2022 23:15:16 +0800) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290947 Archived-At: > From: Ihor Radchenko > Cc: theophilusx@gmail.com, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 23:15:16 +0800 > > >> There are 3 main purposes of remappings in Org: > > > > I'm sure there are good reasons for that. My point is that such > > remappings effectively force the user to re-learn the commands he/she > > is very familiar with. So it's a non-trivial burden. > > Not really. The remappings usually intend to re-implement the usual > expected Emacs behavior inside Org. It's just that it is not always > possible using the built-in functions. Hence, we implement a layer on > top. > > There should not be anything to learn with regard to remapped commands > given that Org defaults are not changed. Are you sure this is always true? There are several dozens of remapped commands; did you audit all of them? And anyway, even if what you say is 110% true, how am I as a user to know that up front? I'm used to read the documentation of every command I don't already know by heart, so when faced with such massive remapping, I have quite some reading to do before I can feel myself at ease. And please note that, unlike Alan, I _do_ use Org, just not very often, at least these days. So what I'm sating doesn't come from the POV of an anti-Org user. I _want_ Org to be easier and less demanding to use. > > The difference is that we had years or decades to get used to the > > Emacs defaults, and once Org is turned on in a buffer, one has a lot > > of new stuff to get used to. Unless Org is used constantly, you will > > forget most of those changes till the next time, so this re-learning > > experience will be repeated every time. > > Isn't it the same for any other major mode? No, not IME. Show me another general-purpose editing mode that defines so many key bindings. The only modes that get close are those where text is read-only, so normal editing is impossible anyway. And even those leave alone basic movement commands, like C-S- which Alan mentioned. > > It isn't a catastrophe, of course, but we should recognize this as an > > issue, especially if many of the bindings aren't needed. > > I am not sure what you mean by aren't needed. Ask Tim Cross: the claim that most of the 230 bindings I counted aren't needed comes from him. > There is no doubt that you do not need most of the bindings just to > navigate Org files or do basic editing. You do not need to learn those > other bindings either. Then why bind them by default? why not wait until I actually need that functionality? If that's hard or impossible to detect automatically, let the user say so. For example, I could envision a minor mode that enables Org-Babel and binds the corresponding commands to keys.