From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: ASCII-only startup message? Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 21:10:25 +0200 Message-ID: <83y4chgh5q.fsf@gnu.org> References: <567ECD8C.1070408@cs.ucla.edu> <8360zlhy7x.fsf@gnu.org> <567EE043.9020109@cs.ucla.edu> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1451156997 19775 80.91.229.3 (26 Dec 2015 19:09:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 19:09:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 26 20:09:51 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aCuDt-0004rx-UF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2015 20:09:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39618 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aCuDs-0007jI-N5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2015 14:09:48 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47909) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aCuDo-0007ir-U4 for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2015 14:09:45 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aCuDl-0006Fs-NK for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2015 14:09:44 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:55390) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aCuDl-0006FX-Je; Sat, 26 Dec 2015 14:09:41 -0500 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1675 helo=HOME-C4E4A596F7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1aCuDk-0002ze-NJ; Sat, 26 Dec 2015 14:09:41 -0500 In-reply-to: <567EE043.9020109@cs.ucla.edu> (message from Paul Eggert on Sat, 26 Dec 2015 10:45:23 -0800) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:196915 Archived-At: > Cc: Emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 10:45:23 -0800 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > That text is a comment we insert into *scratch*; it's not a doc > > string. > > Sure, but the same considerations apply to it that would apply to any text in > commentary and documentation. The text should use good English style. We have agreed to make these changes in documentation and in messages. I don't think we have agreed to do this in any other text that just happens to be run through substitute-command-keys for whatever reasons. > > We shouldn't > > produce non-ASCII characters in comments, it's a user prerogative. > > This is Emacs's comment, one that Emacs creates and inserts, so user prerogative > does not apply here. Exactly! So Emacs should do that. > > The adverse effect of inserting non-ASCII characters shows when your > > locale's codeset is not UTF-8: if you want to save that buffer or any > > part of it that includes this comment, you get annoyed by the request > > to specify a suitable encoding (because*scratch* correctly starts > > with the locale's default encoding). > > This sort of thing is far more likely to happen with *Help* and *Info* buffers > than with the *scratch* buffer. If it is a problem, it needs to be fixed in > general, so that any far-more-likely scenario is fixed. Changing the startup > string is likely to paper over any real problem, and so is counterproductive. I don't want to restart old longish threads. What we do in *Help* buffers was already decided, and I don't want to open that decision. The *scratch* buffer is different. We explicitly say that it is for notes. Users might want to save some of those notes. The *scratch* buffer is correctly created in the user locale's encoding, so we should not put there characters that cannot be encoded in that encoding. Unlike with display, inserting locale-dependent text in this case sounds like not a good idea (think uniformity). Changing the encoding of that buffer doesn't sound correct, either: the user should be able to type there anything in their locale's language, and be able to save that in the locale's encoding. So I simply quoted these apostrophes. I really don't see what's the big deal, we never agreed to have these curved quotes in *scratch*, not even discussed that, AFAIR. It's an unintended side effect, as far as I'm concerned. So I fixed it. The change doesn't modify the startup string, on the contrary: it returns it to what it has been for eons.