From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:13:41 +0300 Message-ID: <83y2lgfoca.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20200910231420.kvqg6ohvxetpup5c@Ergus> <83zh5whl5p.fsf@gnu.org> <83mu1whac7.fsf@gnu.org> <83imckh9yt.fsf@gnu.org> <83ft7oh63h.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911121919.5oljwsot4g3bm7zq@Ergus> <83a6xwh4o3.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911125744.x7at74mr4dyrcktf@Ergus> <83zh5wfor3.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33099"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rekado@elephly.net, ghe@sdf.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, dgutov@yandex.ru To: spacibba@aol.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 11 15:14:17 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGisb-0008VN-7I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:14:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47448 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGisa-0005LB-6U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:14:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46086) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGis6-0004tx-II for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:13:46 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:37652) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGis5-0006t3-Fd; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:13:45 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4249 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1kGis4-0004nE-PD; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:13:45 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83zh5wfor3.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:04:48 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255164 Archived-At: > Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:04:48 +0300 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: rekado@elephly.net, ghe@sdf.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, drew.adams@oracle.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:57:44 +0200 > > From: Ergus > > Cc: rekado@elephly.net, ghe@sdf.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, > > drew.adams@oracle.com, dgutov@yandex.ru > > > > The mode will substitute undo with undo-only. This small contradiction > > will start a war here. > > As long as we keep this on the menu and the tool bar, there will be no > reason for a "war". > > > >> Having undo with an undo-redo in the same "state" could be confusing as > > >> the normal undo could do also redo IMO. > > > > > >If the user uses the menus or the tool bar, the confusion will be > > >spared, right? > > > > > If the user expects undo-only behavior; then having our undo will be > > confusing because not expecting undo becoming a redo at some point. > > How can it be confusing that 2 different commands produce different > results? Why isn't it confusing today, when we already have these 2 > commands? > > > IMO we should have one (undo) or the other (undo-only + undo-edor) but > > not mix them by default. > > Whether to mix them or not is up to the user. To clarify: I'm not opposed to your proposal of having a special mode, I just think it's an unnecessary complication, and actually flies in the face of our desire to make Emacs easier for newbies: a mode that is not turned on by default needs to be discovered and turned on, before its benefits can be apparent. Having these commands available by default doesn't have this disadvantage.