From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Interactive guide for new users Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 17:07:49 +0300 Message-ID: <83wo0zcclm.fsf@gnu.org> References: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org> <8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com> <83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org> <838sdfdzxo.fsf@gnu.org> <834ko3dw3e.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40810"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 12 16:08:21 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6CT-000AVw-Nl for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:08:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59490 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6CS-0003hF-Et for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:08:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58132) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6C0-0003GX-MO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:07:52 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35930) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6Bz-0002J4-R6; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:07:51 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1274 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6By-0002eY-Ge; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:07:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Gregory Heytings on Sat, 12 Sep 2020 13:56:11 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255349 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 13:56:11 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > cc: casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Let's suppose I'm a newbie: first you have two buttons to read a file > (which one should I use? let's try C-o!), then an button to launch dired > (likely not something a newbie would want to do), then a button which says > "Discard (kill) current buffer" (what the heck does that mean?), then > "Save" (okay, that should be C-s, so I don't need that button), "Undo" > (should be C-z... hey, but where is "Redo"?), "Cut" (should be C-x), > "Copy" (should be C-c), "Paste" (should be C-v), "Search" (should be C-f). > Oh, is that all? What's the purpose of that toolbar? (If you look at > other apps they do have these things in a toolbar, but it's because the > toolbar has much more buttons.) The second button from the left has an icon that is very similar to what many other applications use for "Open a File", and the tool-tip for it confirms that (if someone needs a confirmation). I don't see why users will even try anything else. So I think your exaggeration here is misplaced. Or maybe you are looking at a tool bar that has text instead of descriptive icons? In which case that's the problem to solve. > > We don't need to be bug-for-bug compatible with Spacemacs and DOOM. > > Where we think they make a mistake, we should do better. > > The discussion here is not whether something is a mistake or not, but what > new users coming from another editor would likely want to see to have a > positive feeling when they open Emacs. As long as it does not remove an > essential feature, that's fine IMO. If we agree to what you say in the last sentence, fine with me. I guess we will next need to discuss what is "essential" and what isn't.