From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Translation of manuals (was: SES manual French translation) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2024 15:53:10 +0200 Message-ID: <83wmsqy14p.fsf@gnu.org> References: <91D00B9D-0057-4748-8C83-50E749FE3961@traductaire-libre.org> <835y0b29rk.fsf@gnu.org> <8A22A273-11F5-449C-A2A4-2E8C68CCF1FE@traductaire-libre.org> <83ttnvzwlw.fsf@gnu.org> <5D3D13BC-E621-4C40-88D7-3E5805F631AB@traductaire-libre.org> <83sf3fzvk4.fsf@gnu.org> <835y0azhvo.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28712"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org To: Jean-Christophe Helary Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jan 03 14:54:31 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rL1hW-0007D3-Ep for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 14:54:30 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rL1gi-00083Z-Kc; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 08:53:41 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rL1gd-00083I-UT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 08:53:36 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rL1gc-00022L-LB; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 08:53:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=xpSsErBijc7LZO9xtViRtazSoxxunqZ09/SkBgnITrw=; b=rYbY+Ic/cg2GVz5V3ERT rZow4xD1RBZ+aXEPnJ/CZzkWzIEWukJmB8wLzQsnexRzyPSOFN7U7/XRzx1TXfU2v37dp6FQ2osON yWsq3wz9d/1PQTpf0Hrc6pREkEd2Emb/efR4scEHJlewEtzqCWEyt6nIg5oYNrpjS/CbtlFPhAgFM 0Af6m/Zx+P56ncHelCkugyYbyE1r/Sh6cXdSu5jWIMf5lCjdX9LRbzmL/7sWtnvLtdzzgfG9Uo04O IKVUXY6Sthf3357y7A1bbRRChXgtvb2LbBKlMcBxi+6OuLngfed48Zm0+VScs1jji5CMSIngQ6iDm a9EPa0otlvD8sQ==; In-Reply-To: (message from Jean-Christophe Helary on Wed, 03 Jan 2024 13:30:44 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314494 Archived-At: > Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2024 13:30:44 +0000 > From: Jean-Christophe Helary > Cc: Stefan Kangas , Vincent Belaïche , emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org > > > If chunks were sentences, that would be impractical, indeed. But I > > very much doubt that this is a good idea for translating manuals > > (message catalogs use short phrases because most messages in programs > > are themselves short phrases or single sentences). Translating a > > sentence out of its context is much harder than translating a whole > > paragraph, because different languages have different ways of > > explaining technical issues, and a good translation might well require > > rearrange or rewrite sentences. > > Indeed. But “marking” sentences does not mean that they can’t be > translated by using different structures. A practical example for that > is when translating 2 sentences with one sentence with two parts > separated by a comma. > > Also, translating a sentence never happens out of its context. There is > the sentence before and the sentence after and all are visually present > during the translation. So it’s easy for the translator to take the > context into account. If context is important when translating technical documentation (and it is IME), then any change in a paragraph will in many cases affect more than the sentence corresponding to the one modified in English. Moreover, a good translation of a paragraph will in many cases produce a translated paragraph without 1:1 correspondence between sentences. So changes in the original will need to consider much more than a single sentence anyway. > I understand that you have some translating experience, but I am not > sure that we see the same issues. > > > So my initial thinking was that whole paragraphs, and sometimes more, > > should be marked as a unit. And that is much more practical than > > marking short phrases or single sentences. > > I’m not sure I understand what kind of marks you envision. Paragraphs > are already marked by surrounding empty lines. I mean, for example, give each paragraph a number, like so: @node Display Margins @subsection Displaying in the Margins @cindex display margins @cindex margins, display @c para 1234 A buffer can have blank areas called @dfn{display margins} on the left and on the right. Ordinary text never appears in these areas, but you can put things into the display margins using the @code{display} property. There is currently no way to make text or images in the margin mouse-sensitive. @c para 1235 The way to display something in the margins is to specify it in a margin display specification in the @code{display} property of some text. This is a replacing display specification, meaning that the text you put it on does not get displayed; the margin display appears, but that text does not. @c para 1236 A margin display specification looks like @code{((margin right-margin) @var{spec})} or @code{((margin left-margin) @var{spec})}. Here, @var{spec} is another display specification that says what to display in the margin. Typically it is a string of text to display, or an image descriptor. When paragraph #1234 in the English original was modified, translators will know that they need to update the translation of the corresponding paragraph(s) (could be more than one) in their translations, and nothing else. It should be easy to analyze the diffs, look for the "@c para NNNN" marks, and present the translator with the corresponding paragraph(s) from the translation.