From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 15:05:42 +0200 Message-ID: <83wmsmsjbt.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5EC9A02F-DB34-48B6-BD2D-CB9E89A385D0@traductaire-libre.org> <83r0iwuek9.fsf@gnu.org> <837cknvkrx.fsf@gnu.org> <83r0iuuacz.fsf@gnu.org> <83a5piu1y3.fsf@gnu.org> <3BA42BAC-B6D2-4531-BDC2-D8037E7038F7@traductaire-libre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13328"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org To: Jean-Christophe Helary Original-X-From: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 06 14:06:35 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rM6Nm-0003AY-Gx for gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 14:06:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM6NE-0001ew-HM; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 08:06:00 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM6ND-0001eS-4v; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 08:05:59 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rM6NB-0002qv-Qw; Sat, 06 Jan 2024 08:05:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=BPxpgXtMViFwaHB8ukfi+emOh2ckx8iYQrM2WzkTFH8=; b=bva3ylKiOH2MXKgvCvFl 0S1SzXYxxMekM5/zkStYHdrFR9WPwXo531nNugdQGzL7+XmUttDOb2KEnT3hcSsWO6mvDHp51RO2+ gdjTJuNpB/AU5jb6qW3OtxtLWDApiKixcYHYAARDnSZINUYKdi2Fe5LLX8LzW1BHMOmqG90Ae3VQr IPwk2ZvBH4ZjtsywvY+LRyRA5bLxBYsj+budlIG3A4Qrh4jSEXuqICTqbBhiOvJNFWGOS6jVhirqP LyGQOC2FTeSbnWr70QZZ2eGKu7uv2cEC/ZNRBWV44bo0oNlX5LTTRt8+dg23jF/UCP8xAaiw9WAba /v/bwya5sMwlTQ==; In-Reply-To: <3BA42BAC-B6D2-4531-BDC2-D8037E7038F7@traductaire-libre.org> (message from Jean-Christophe Helary on Sat, 06 Jan 2024 12:25:55 +0000) X-BeenThere: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general:3375 gmane.emacs.devel:314618 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 12:25:55 +0000 > From: Jean-Christophe Helary > Cc: Stefan Kangas , Vincent Belaïche , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Richard Stallman , help-texinfo@gnu.org > > > On Jan 6, 2024, at 20:38, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > >> 1. I read a manual in English, there is a link with a node in English, > >> it directs to the other English manual. > >> > >> It’s the expected behaviour. > >> > >> 2. I read a manual in French, there is a link with a node in English, > >> it directs to the other English manual. > >> > >> If the other manual exists in French, it is not the proper behaviour. > > I forgot. If I understand texinfo properly, if the manual name is > translated (and if the manual is translated) it is enough that the node > name is the same as in the target manual, so either both untranslated, > or both translated. So here, the node name only being left in English > is not so relevant. What matters most is whether the manual name is > translated or not. Am I correct? Yes, I think so. > >> 3. I read a manual in French, there is a link with a node in French, it > >> directs to the other French manual. > >> > >> If the other manual exists in French, it is the proper behaviour. > >> > >> If it does not, we should have an error message that informs the reader > >> that the manual is not translated. > > > > I think case 3 should fall back to the English manual instead of > > erroring out. Having a manual without translation to an arbitrary > > language will be the usual case for quite some time, so an error > > message sounds like a harsh punishment to me. > > Sure, but the situation where that would happen is indeed when there > are too few translated manuals to create a “monolingual ecosystem” > where manuals all link to each other. Which is where we are now, and will probably remain for at least a few years to come. > Supposedly, the user has installed the manual independently and knows > that there will be limitations. Just like all web sites have default 404 > pages and some have redirection, the error does not have to read like > a punishment. It is an annoyance. gettext shows the original English message if there's no translation, and I think we should try doing the same in Info. > Btw, does your comment indicate that you are currently not strongly > opposed to translating the node names? I'm not opposed, but I tend to think we shouldn't translate them until Texinfo developers figure out how to handle these cases.