From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 18:57:18 +0200 Message-ID: <83vb4ytedt.fsf@gnu.org> References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <64a52598-ad53-498c-993c-67d7827dbdfc@default> <838u1uuuau.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457369857 16070 80.91.229.3 (7 Mar 2016 16:57:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 16:57:37 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "John Wiegley" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 07 17:57:32 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1acyTK-0007Iw-SM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 17:57:31 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57009 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acyTK-0002Em-7m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:57:30 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36333) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acyTE-0002Ap-W1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:57:26 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acyTE-0001JY-3p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:57:24 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:47616) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acyT9-0001Ei-Jb; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:57:19 -0500 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1330 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1acyT1-00051E-T4; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:57:12 -0500 In-reply-to: (message from John Wiegley on Mon, 07 Mar 2016 08:31:56 -0800) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201058 Archived-At: > From: John Wiegley > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 08:31:56 -0800 > > >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > It is IMO a grave mistake to remove parts of our development process just > > because they need to be learned by new contributors. The result will be > > increased burden on the shoulders of those who review the submissions, due > > to the need to coach them, catch their mistakes, ask for re-submissions, > > etc. It will eventually be a net loss, because those contributors will not > > enjoy the need to produce several versions of the patch before it is > > admitted, and the reviewers will not enjoy the extra burden. > > I agree with you, Eli. The question: What is the role of _ChangeLog_ in this. > Most other projects don't have them, and I don't hear them complaining. I disagree with this assessment. I've just provided a list of prominent GNU projects that do have them, _as_files_in_the_repo_. The list of GNU projects that don't have them in the repo, but do adhere to the ChangeLog format, is much longer. > So what is the exact merit of the format, and why should we continue > to require it in spite of its costs? I think I just answered that in my other mails in this thread. As for the costs, I think they are negligible, certainly much smaller than what we had to pay for this experiment during the year since we decided to try. And some of the fallout is not yet solved, and we don't even have a clear idea how to solve it, nor motivation to do that.