From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2018 08:29:05 +0300 Message-ID: <83va7fqlwe.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87bm9d9zs9.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87efe75v02.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87sh2lu471.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87r2i4p2f8.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <83r2i4rmg7.fsf@gnu.org> <87o9d7bryw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536471942 10677 195.159.176.226 (9 Sep 2018 05:45:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 05:45:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: hw Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 09 07:45:38 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fysXR-0002hP-EO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 07:45:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46161 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fysZX-00036V-Ow for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:47:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54945) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fysXv-0002Os-24 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:46:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fysIM-0004dt-CN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:30:06 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:33023) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fysHT-0003gc-Hg; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:29:07 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4888 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fysHN-0006ci-3h; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:29:01 -0400 In-reply-to: <87o9d7bryw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> (message from hw on Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:23:53 +0200) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229540 Archived-At: > From: hw > Cc: spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk > Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:23:53 +0200 > > > The Emacs tutorial already mentions the arrow keys, before it teaches > > the more ergonomic cursor motion keys. > > My point is not which particular keys to use but that the tutorial > doesn't fly because it makes false assumptions --- > > in this case about the efficiency with which certain keys can be pressed > which largely depends on > > + the users and their skill-level in 10-finger typing, > > + the equipment in use and > > + the difficulty of un-learning the usage of arrow keys which might have > already been practised to a rather high and extremely efficient > skill-level over decades and is still needed everywhere else Yes, the tutorial makes a point of catering also for people who want or can overcome these obstacles. I see nothing wrong with that: if you are one of those who can't, just ignore the part about ergonomic cursor motion keys. > --- which lead the tutorial to lengthly go into explanations about > irrelevant key bindings rather than about relevant ones which prevents > it from picking up beginners where they think they are so that > confidence can be instilled in them that they can learn Emacs, and trust > that Emacs isn't difficult to use at all. Are we talking about the same tutorial? Here's the actual text: * BASIC CURSOR CONTROL ---------------------- Moving from screenful to screenful is useful, but how do you move to a specific place within the text on the screen? There are several ways you can do this. You can use the arrow keys, but it's more efficient to keep your hands in the standard position and use the commands C-p, C-b, C-f, and C-n. [...]