From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Suggested experimental test Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 16:37:03 +0200 Message-ID: <83v99i6ink.fsf@gnu.org> References: <831ba60af0cbfdd95686@heytings.org> <87mtuxj8ue.fsf@gnus.org> <9088e12cb3de3d30abf1@heytings.org> <8735wnjsum.fsf@gnus.org> <83sg4n9jei.fsf@gnu.org> <271290d7aac58f2f9e96@heytings.org> <83czvr9hvc.fsf@gnu.org> <271290d7aa69bbcaa204@heytings.org> <83lfae8fbg.fsf@gnu.org> <22aaf0fadd0894af49d9@heytings.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38696"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 23 15:50:00 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lOiM2-0009nF-B5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:49:58 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55716 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOiM1-0005lB-Cs for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:49:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48488) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOi9X-0002az-2B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:37:03 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:56674) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOi9V-0003yd-Vh; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:37:01 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1252 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1lOi9R-0008SE-VU; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:37:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: <22aaf0fadd0894af49d9@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:15:26 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:266879 Archived-At: > Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:15:26 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > cc: larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > I see your points, but all this is rather sad, because it means that Emacs > is forever locked by what looks very much like a historical accident. I disagree, on both counts: Emacs isn't locked, and what we have is not an accident. The utmost easiness with which users can change the key bindings means there isn't, and can never be, a lockdown. > I'm not sure if the above ("this is not our problem") is your opinion, or > if you just present a possible viewpoint you do not necessarily share. Does it matter? > Just type emacs -Q, M-x list-packages RET, RET. The package you now see > ('ace-window') asks you to fiddle with your init file by adding a > 'global-set-key' to it. The second package in the list ('ack') does the > same. And so forth. That's not a problem for you and me, it is a problem > for newcomers, and these 'global-set-key's should be done automatically, > during the installation process. Do you know any other software that asks > you to change a configuration file manually to use an extension package? I disagree that it's a problem. Customizing key bindings is an integral part of using Emacs wisely and efficiently, and the sooner newcomers learn that the better. Emacs is unlike many other editors in this regard. > As the author of Magit wrote when he added the "C-x g" global binding: > > "Some [...] beginners will initially have a low threshold for things not > working out of the box and I don't want to (continue to) scare them off by > immediately forcing them to learn how to add key bindings and what that > even means. There's a lot of talk about making Emacs friendlier for > beginners and this is a small step in that direction." [1] > > [1] https://github.com/magit/magit/pull/4237#issuecomment-723495053 I can only say I disagree, with all due respect to Magit and its authors. Trying to make everybody happy with the default Emacs key bindings is a dead end. Trying to solve that unsolvable problem is a waste of energy.