From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: IDE Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:34:18 +0300 Message-ID: <83twpzrp05.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5610207A.2000300@harpegolden.net> <83fv1r3gzp.fsf@gnu.org> <83bncf3f9k.fsf@gnu.org> <5610E0BC.8090902@online.de> <83si5r106e.fsf@gnu.org> <831td9z18h.fsf@gnu.org> <5612E996.7090700@yandex.ru> <83bnc7tavr.fsf@gnu.org> <5618C92A.3040207@yandex.ru> <83a8rrt9ag.fsf@gnu.org> <5618D376.1080700@yandex.ru> <831td3t62e.fsf@gnu.org> <5618E51D.4070800@yandex.ru> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1444473288 7381 80.91.229.3 (10 Oct 2015 10:34:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 10:34:48 +0000 (UTC) Cc: adatgyujto@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 10 12:34:33 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkrU0-00051M-QE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:34:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44359 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkrU0-0000Dz-3M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 06:34:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40600) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkrTw-0000Bs-DG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 06:34:29 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkrTr-0006Pi-C1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 06:34:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:55162) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkrTq-0006PU-Vn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 06:34:23 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NW0001001Q14800@mtaout24.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:27:26 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NW0002N32DQS200@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:27:26 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <5618E51D.4070800@yandex.ru> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 80.179.55.180 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:191116 Archived-At: > Cc: adatgyujto@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:14:53 +0300 > > On 10/10/2015 12:40 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > I don't know. It's for someone who will work on this to find out. I > > know that a motivated individual in the GDB development team already > > based a useful set of commands on it -- you can compile and inject > > code into your program while debugging it. > > That seems orthogonal to code completion capabilities, for where I'm > standing. Of course, it is. I didn't mean to say that injecting code and completion/refactoring need the same capabilities. But libcc1 doesn't provide only what GDB uses, and it can be extended. > >> We definitely could have more in this department, yes. But what would > >> you even call an "IDE mode"? A fixed multi-window setup a la ECB? > > > > I don't know, and neither do we as a project. A useful step would be > > to produce a detailed answer to that question. That answer could both > > serve as base for useful discussions, and might provide some anchor > > for all those external packages you mentioned to target some coherent > > vision. > > "We need a common interface for refactoring tools" sounds like a good > problem statement. Is IDE just about refactoring? I thought it meant much more. > > I don't believe comprehensive features such as IDE can be developed > > exclusively bottom up. There should be some basic set of assumptions > > and design rules/decisions that everyone should target and abide by. > > There should also be some unified leadership. > > A comprehensive set of IDE features might be too lofty a goal for us, in > the foreseeable future. Depends on how many people will work on it. In any case, having some high-level design that is targeted by all the components will ensure more or less seamless integration when each component becomes available. > > What if we build our completion on a UI that today's developers will > > dislike? Unlike with many traditional Emacs features, which were > > developed when there was no prior art, the IDE features have lots of > > prior art. No need to invent the wheel, just implement similar look > > and feel. > > Hence we're bundling Company. Last time I looked the IDEs I sometimes look at (Visual Studio and Eclipse) present a much more pleasant UI for completion. Why can't we present something similar?