From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 13:25:45 +0300 Message-ID: <83tunulkye.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <1c2c69f9-f42e-45e2-ab0e-8506aa859f85@yandex.ru> <8335ven7tu.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7489"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 25 12:28:40 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lac0F-0001pa-Uv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 12:28:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55674 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lac0E-0008Dv-Vj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 06:28:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52170) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1labxn-0007hK-O6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 06:26:07 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35000) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1labxm-0004Ms-Uc; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 06:26:06 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4272 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1labxm-0004dU-5P; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 06:26:06 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:30:04 -0500) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:268365 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 04:30:04 -0500 > Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > I don't see any good way around this. This is basic Emacs > > terminology, for which we did everything we could to document and > > clearly explain what we mean. > > The way I see around it is to change that terminology. So that everyone who used Emacs until now will have to re-learn? When I see DEL mentioned in the Emacs documentation, I immediately know what key that alludes to. How would you propose to change the documentation while letting veteran users still understand it quickly and unequivocally? > > You can't, because not every keyboard has that key. And because users > > still can confuse that with the BS (a.k.a. "C-h") key. > > I note that any keyboard I have ever seen or used has had a backspace > key. It is of course not interesting to me what exact control codes > that key has been sending on various machines over the years. When > pressed, it has erased text backwards. But it doesn't always erase backward, it sometimes _moves_ backward. Besides, what exactly is your proposal? Backspace vs DEL is not the only such issue: we have RET vs Enter (how many keyboards did you see with a key labeled "RET"?). And on my keyboard (and most probably on yours as well) I have a key labeled "Delete" and another one labeled "Del" -- how do we make sure users will not be confused by that? There's also Tab the function key vs TAB the ASCII control character -- are we going to make that distinction explicit as well? This deceptively "simple" issue is full of difficulties and underwater rocks. At the time, it took several non-trivial iterations to get the text in the manual about that as clear and descriptive as it is. If you are serious with your suggestion, please propose how to treat this complex issue in its entirety; it isn't enough to say let's replace DEL with Backspace. > Most other software seems to handle such keys gracefully and > transparently. Why can't we? I think we already do.