From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 18:34:30 +0300 Message-ID: <83sg4094e1.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <83mtua9isw.fsf@gnu.org> <83zgy8997y.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6376"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 08 17:36:53 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lUWiD-0001Xq-4T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 17:36:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34080 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lUWiC-0004nB-5n for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 11:36:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34082) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lUWgK-0003Kq-9I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 11:34:56 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43893) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lUWgJ-0000L9-SZ; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 11:34:55 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2204 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1lUWgE-00081F-8a; Thu, 08 Apr 2021 11:34:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Thu, 8 Apr 2021 08:27:02 -0700) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:267623 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 08:27:02 -0700 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> >> + '(("Getting Help" > >> > > >> > I'd use something like "Describe and Find Commands, Keys, Functions". > >> > >> That's fine, but it is a bit long. > > > > Why is it a problem to be long? > > Keeping it short is in line with common recommendations in UIX design, > which strongly favours simplicity, in order not to burden the mental > bandwidth of users with irrelevant detail. We are talking about short but inaccurate vs longer but more accurate. I agree that, all the rest being equal, the shorter the better, but that's not our case here. > Having a long headline here weighs the entire screen down, makes it > harder to read and more intimidating. I think you exaggerate here a bit. > > Both "getting Help" and "Basic Help" is too general to be useful, IMO. > > Things will be clear from context. No one risks being confused by > "Basic Help" or "Getting Help". If they will be clear from context, then they are redundant, IMO. > The main purpose is to give a quick overview of the most commonly used > commands. Exactly. And too-general headings aren't useful for the overview, because they require one to read what's under them to understand. > >> Do we need to speak of "top-level menu", or can we get away with the > >> shorter "Show all installed manuals"? > > > > But "show a manual" could be interpreted as displaying the contents of > > that manual, in which case "show all manuals" makes no sense. > > I don't see how anyone could take "show all manuals" as meaning anything > other than some kind of _list_ of manuals. Well, I did. > How else would they be shown? "They" being the manuals? The top-level Info menu doesn't show any manuals, it only shows their names. > That said, this is not something I feel is very important. We can go > with your preference if you feel strongly about it. I don't feel strong about it. You asked for a review, and I provided one. Thanks.