From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:55:45 +0300 Message-ID: <83sf5xhnym.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87il8betof.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83fs3dgxv8.fsf@gnu.org> <835y38qvlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcx6eci.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <831qdlpoye.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="21316"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 26 08:56:39 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuIJ-0005I0-3f for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 08:56:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuHY-00082y-Dz; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:55:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuHU-0007yb-H9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:55:48 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuHS-0004l1-PK; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:55:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=7SRAdcUs/QevkQN6qf30/QFehscmnkuFU+Jqqd/GkUs=; b=NyDf/YLE8ryH c0pOqi0t66jqUAPCD1NyCcl0fTQxjx3A7LU8/D5uMhfFLks5qa/H5F1og5O4FSUbQwihqftzYAfmb keaufFTHMkuoY+7J/FfN0fwL5A5eD45asHfSdKrulYJ/xZ1F4c0oyev52ZhcX+65TnBBGtKl56mCH TJfJmub/YeR7dXEitD/6/B2aHae7XHk91Nb3xR81RhU0yan7p1emHvufnP6thz1kHCr3ulgQAt8TU 12VyrpArOtnorFjetahBVgGeBtzju1zGKYXkk70xr0WfqGBAWqyqFuSTWMyN6tG1MdO3duN4K6Jmu +lYF0EamFTqG51KLsvHw6Q==; In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:27:54 -0400) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311887 Archived-At: > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:27:54 -0400 > > > The only difference I see is that new version is harder to read, and > > more prone to bugs (as you have to write the same code twice). > > Do you frequently use the cl- facilities such as `cl-pushnew'? If so, > that might explain why you didn't _see_ the extra complexity that > comes from calling `cl-pushnew'. That extra complexity exists for > people who don't habitually use cl facilities, and not for those who > do habitually use them. I think the need to be familiar with the cl-lib and cl-macs functionalities is nowadays a requirement for any Emacs maintainer. It can take time to familiarize oneself with them, but it isn't rocket science. Btw, some of the cl-lib facilities should not be used in new code if they have equivalent implementations ins seq.el (which is nowadays preloaded) and in map.el. cl-generic.el is also preloaded, so should be used in preference to the cl-lib alternatives. And some frequently needed cl-lib functions were moved to cl-preloaded.el, and are also always available.