From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: IDE Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:58:44 +0300 Message-ID: <83r3l2r1nf.fsf@gnu.org> References: <831td9z18h.fsf@gnu.org> <5612E996.7090700@yandex.ru> <83bnc7tavr.fsf@gnu.org> <5618C92A.3040207@yandex.ru> <83a8rrt9ag.fsf@gnu.org> <5618D376.1080700@yandex.ru> <831td3t62e.fsf@gnu.org> <5618E51D.4070800@yandex.ru> <83twpzrp05.fsf@gnu.org> <5618ED93.8000001@yandex.ru> <83lhbbrnn7.fsf@gnu.org> <56191EBE.5050404@yandex.ru> <83612essaw.fsf@gnu.org> <877fmuix68.fsf@isaac.fritz.box> <8337xispn2.fsf@gnu.org> <56195055.6010409@gmx.at> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1444503567 16509 80.91.229.3 (10 Oct 2015 18:59:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 18:59:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: John Wiegley Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 10 20:59:12 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzMK-0003Q0-3U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:59:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45888 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzMJ-00070l-IT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:59:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36415) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzLw-0006zW-6U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:58:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzLs-0001iH-19 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:58:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout29.012.net.il ([80.179.55.185]:57746) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzLr-0001hx-Nr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:58:39 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout29.012.net.il by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NW000J00PKC9P00@mtaout29.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:59:41 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NW000JVHQ3GW710@mtaout29.012.net.il>; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:59:41 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 80.179.55.185 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:191163 Archived-At: > From: "John Wiegley" > Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:31:13 -0700 > > To reiterate: I think Emacs becomes more of an IDE when it provides the > backbone of an IDE, and not when it looks like one. I don't think this will fly. In effect, you are telling Emacs users they will have to code their own IDE by using the infrastructure (a.k.a. "backbone") that we provide. If I were that user, I'd immediately turn away and look elsewhere. An analogy to that would be if, instead of Gnus, we'd provide an infrastructure for a news- and mail-reader. To me, an IDE is not a set of functionalities. It's a coherent application that provides an IDE-like look-and-feel, and all the related functions already integrated and ready for me to be used. That includes window-layout, btw, because configuring Emacs windows for IDE-like behavior is an exceedingly complex task, one that's impossible without good command of ELisp. Not something I'd offer a user whose only wish is to build a project in some language we support. We cannot provide a toolbox and tell users make your own IDE from these tools. Integrating those tools together is a non-trivial task a user should not be expected to perform.