From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Confused by y-or-n-p Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 16:58:40 +0200 Message-ID: <83r1mza0rj.fsf@gnu.org> References: <834kkcr1eo.fsf@gnu.org> <83im8qnyca.fsf@gnu.org> <83bleinmse.fsf@gnu.org> <56435592-d2d0-5fb6-977f-01e1931da835@gmx.at> <87k0t38g1z.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83czyvkts6.fsf@gnu.org> <87bleetirr.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87y2hhri3n.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83pn2tkfg8.fsf@gnu.org> <871rf7ippu.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83a6trg6mc.fsf@gnu.org> <87im8f951f.fsf@gnus.org> <83lfdacapo.fsf@gnu.org> <87im8d6q4q.fsf@gnus.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30275"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rudalics@gmx.at, larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, juri@linkov.net To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 05 16:22:15 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kwoA3-0007kk-Jh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 Jan 2021 16:22:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47366 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kwoA2-0007jQ-Lo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 Jan 2021 10:22:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54066) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kwo9U-0006zY-Ph for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Jan 2021 10:21:40 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35388) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kwo9U-0006aA-3R; Tue, 05 Jan 2021 10:21:40 -0500 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2848 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1kwnnK-0004UD-4J; Tue, 05 Jan 2021 09:58:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Tue, 05 Jan 2021 01:33:57 -0500) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:262524 Archived-At: > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, rudalics@gmx.at, juri@linkov.net, > drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 01:33:57 -0500 > > > Three out of five Emacs maintainers have now weighed in (at some length, > > in total), that they don't think your proposal would be helpful in > > practice, so I think it's time to let this go. > > We can't "let it go". A combination of our practices adds up to a > system that will install some UI changes without having much of a > discussion about it. And then, once they are released, it is "too > late" to argue to revert them. I don't think the above is a balanced description of the reality. We have a single incident, or maybe a small number of them, where the process failed to spot a problematic change in time for it to be fixed before the release. So we are fixing it later. That's not what the "system" is, that's a rare exception. Mistakes happen, and will continue to happen, no matter what procedures we will install. Let's not exaggerate the significance of a single incident, and let's not draw drastic conclusions from it that blow the issue out of proportions, because that never leads to sound decisions. > There are many ways we could fix this, but we need to fix it. The problems are rare, so the proposed solutions should not unduly complicate the existing process, which in the vast majority of the cases does work, and works well. I invite you to read the NEWS for the few recent releases looking for behavior changes that have a documented way of disabling them, and for changes that are opt-in to begin with. _That_ is what the "system" produces, not the one or two rare exceptions.