About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Angelo Graziosi]

Just out of curiosity, given the Emacs executable, is there a way to know the MSYS2/MinGW64 DLLs it needs? On MSYS2 I tried:

ldd Emacs/bin/emacs-27.0.50.exe
ntdll.dll => /c/WINDOWS/SYSTEM32/ntdll.dll (0x7ffab5f30000)
KERNEL32.DLL => /c/WINDOWS/System32/KERNEL32.DLL (0x7ffab49b0000)
[...]
WINMMBASE.dll => /c/WINDOWS/SYSTEM32/WINMMBASE.dll (0x7ffab0620000)
IPHLPAPI.DLL => /c/WINDOWS/SYSTEM32/IPHLPAPI.DLL (0x7ffab18a0000)
bcrypt.dll => /c/WINDOWS/SYSTEM32/bcrypt.dll (0x7ffab1de0000)

but it prints only Windows DLLs not all the others which come from MSYS2/MinGW64...

Thanks,
 Angelo.

Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[David Macek]

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On 20. 11. 2017 13:53, Angelo Graziosi via Msys2-users wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, given the Emacs executable, is there a way to know the MSYS2/MinGW64 DLLs it needs? On MSYS2 I tried:
> 
> ldd Emacs/bin/emacs-27.0.50.exe
> but it prints only Windows DLLs not all the others which come from MSYS2/MinGW64...

Hi. Use ntldd (installable via pacman) or Dependency Walker.

-- 
David Macek


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Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Fabrice Popineau]

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2017-11-20 14:55 GMT+01:00 David Macek <david.macek.0-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:

> On 20. 11. 2017 13:53, Angelo Graziosi via Msys2-users wrote:
>
>> Just out of curiosity, given the Emacs executable, is there a way to know
>> the MSYS2/MinGW64 DLLs it needs? On MSYS2 I tried:
>>
>> ldd Emacs/bin/emacs-27.0.50.exe
>> but it prints only Windows DLLs not all the others which come from
>> MSYS2/MinGW64...
>>
>
> Hi. Use ntldd (installable via pacman) or Dependency Walker.


Will it find the libraries that loaded at runtime ? And their dependencies ?

Fabrice

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Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Óscar Fuentes]

Fabrice Popineau
<fabrice.popineau-LuT7N8upsGq9tw52UnRK6UZa+K1vlBrA@public.gmane.org>
writes:

>>> Just out of curiosity, given the Emacs executable, is there a way to know
>>> the MSYS2/MinGW64 DLLs it needs? On MSYS2 I tried:
>>>
>>> ldd Emacs/bin/emacs-27.0.50.exe
>>> but it prints only Windows DLLs not all the others which come from
>>> MSYS2/MinGW64...
>>>
>>
>> Hi. Use ntldd (installable via pacman) or Dependency Walker.
>
>
> Will it find the libraries that loaded at runtime ? And their dependencies ?

Dunno about ntldd, but if you execute Emacs from Dependency Walker it
will report dlls loaded at runtime.

Please note that Emacs will load a dll only when a feature that requires
it is used. So it is not a reliable method for figuring out the dlls
Emacs needs.

The best method is to look at the packages Emacs depend on and get the
dlls from there.


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Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Fabrice Popineau]

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2017-11-20 16:04 GMT+01:00 Óscar Fuentes <ofv-39ZsbGIQGT7e5aOfsHch1g@public.gmane.org>:

> Fabrice Popineau
> <fabrice.popineau-LuT7N8upsGq9tw52UnRK6UZa+K1vlBrA@public.gmane.org>
> writes:
>
> >>> Just out of curiosity, given the Emacs executable, is there a way to
> know
> >>> the MSYS2/MinGW64 DLLs it needs? On MSYS2 I tried:
> >>>
> >>> ldd Emacs/bin/emacs-27.0.50.exe
> >>> but it prints only Windows DLLs not all the others which come from
> >>> MSYS2/MinGW64...
> >>>
> >>
> >> Hi. Use ntldd (installable via pacman) or Dependency Walker.
> >
> >
> > Will it find the libraries that loaded at runtime ? And their
> dependencies ?
>
> Dunno about ntldd, but if you execute Emacs from Dependency Walker it
> will report dlls loaded at runtime.
>

Yes, if you _execute_ emacs from DependencyWalker and if you request that
the dll be loaded.
Until then, you don't know.
I have built a list of dlls that maybe requested by emacs using pacman.
I used pacman to know which package holds some dll like gnutls, and then I
listed all
its dependencies, and filtered the dlls in the dependencies.

Unfortunately, knowing the dlls is not enough. For example, gnutls also
need to have an accessible
ca-bundle for certificates. ImageMagick needs all its helpers to handle
various file formats, etc.

Fabrice

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Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau-LuT7N8upsGq9tw52UnRK6UZa+K1vlBrA@public.gmane.org>
> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 16:13:48 +0100
> Cc: Msys2 <msys2-users-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org>,
> 	Emacs developers <emacs-devel-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org>
> 
> gnutls also need to have an accessible ca-bundle for certificates.

Not on MS-Windows, it doesn't: it uses the system certificate store instead.

But in general, your point is valid: various optional libraries need support
files to work properly.

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Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Fabrice Popineau]

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2017-11-20 18:31 GMT+01:00 Eli Zaretskii <eliz-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org>:

> > From: Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau-LuT7N8upsGq9tw52UnRK6UZa+K1vlBrA@public.gmane.org>
> > Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 16:13:48 +0100
> > Cc: Msys2 <msys2-users-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org>,
> >       Emacs developers <emacs-devel-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org>
> >
> > gnutls also need to have an accessible ca-bundle for certificates.
>
> Not on MS-Windows, it doesn't: it uses the system certificate store
> instead.
>

Oh ... good to know. I recall that I had to make gnutls point to the file
in the past.
Maybe  I overlooked something. (I don't use gnutls much)


> But in general, your point is valid: various optional libraries need
> support
> files to work properly.
>

Given the numerous dependencies, and as long as msys2/mingw64 is concerned,
it is so much
easier to install msys2 and then request emacs from pacman than to package
a standalone
emacs. Lots of elisp packages may require other mingw64 packages : a spell
checker, git, etc.
It is easy to install them with pacman. The user will have a much harder
time with
a standalone emacs. If you want a full emacs experience, you need a full
unix-like environment.

Fabrice

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Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau@centralesupelec.fr>
> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 20:59:05 +0100
> Cc: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>, 
> 	Msys2 <msys2-users@lists.sourceforge.net>, Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
>  > gnutls also need to have an accessible ca-bundle for certificates.
> 
>  Not on MS-Windows, it doesn't: it uses the system certificate store instead.
> 
> Oh ... good to know. I recall that I had to make gnutls point to the file in the past. 

It's a recently added feature:

  #if GNUTLS_VERSION_NUMBER >= 0x030014
  # define HAVE_GNUTLS_X509_SYSTEM_TRUST
  #endif

which then causes us to call the function.
gnutls_certificate_set_x509_system_trust.

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Re: [Msys2-users] About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Phillip Lord]

Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau@centralesupelec.fr> writes:

> 2017-11-20 18:31 GMT+01:00 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>:
>> But in general, your point is valid: various optional libraries need
>> support
>> files to work properly.
>>
>
> Given the numerous dependencies, and as long as msys2/mingw64 is
> concerned, it is so much easier to install msys2 and then request
> emacs from pacman than to package a standalone emacs. Lots of elisp
> packages may require other mingw64 packages : a spell checker, git,
> etc.  It is easy to install them with pacman. The user will have a
> much harder time with a standalone emacs. If you want a full emacs
> experience, you need a full unix-like environment.


The new "with-deps" build and installer of Emacs actually packages quite
a bit of msys2/mingw64 including, for example, a python
installation.

I am sure this is overkill, but it is there. How much of this actually
works (python does!) once it's been repackaged, I do not know. I'm not
likely to find out in normal use, so I'd welcome feedback.

Phil

Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Fabrice Popineau]

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2017-11-23 0:06 GMT+01:00 Phillip Lord <phillip.lord-WS8JpuUeUJXe9xe1eoZjHA@public.gmane.org>:

> Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau-LuT7N8upsGq9tw52UnRK6UZa+K1vlBrA@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
> > 2017-11-20 18:31 GMT+01:00 Eli Zaretskii <eliz-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org>:
> >> But in general, your point is valid: various optional libraries need
> >> support
> >> files to work properly.
> >>
> >
> > Given the numerous dependencies, and as long as msys2/mingw64 is
> > concerned, it is so much easier to install msys2 and then request
> > emacs from pacman than to package a standalone emacs. Lots of elisp
> > packages may require other mingw64 packages : a spell checker, git,
> > etc.  It is easy to install them with pacman. The user will have a
> > much harder time with a standalone emacs. If you want a full emacs
> > experience, you need a full unix-like environment.
>
>
> The new "with-deps" build and installer of Emacs actually packages quite
> a bit of msys2/mingw64 including, for example, a python
> installation.
>

This is precisely the kind of drifting I hate.
When on Windows I don't want to use the msys2 python because it doesn't
play so well.
I vastly prefer Anaconda (On GNU/Linux too btw)
If you start to package Python with emacs, you'll end up packaging the
whole MSys2.
At least that should be made optional.

One nasty thing about DLLs. Anaconda ships with libpng.dll and others which
are
dynamically loaded by emacs. Reason why in my own copy of Emacs, I have
restricted
the path where dlls are looked for to the emacs binary directory.

Fabrice

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Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Fabrice Popineau]

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And sorry if my answer seems rude because I know you did an amazing job
for packaging this stuff.  But there always will be a problem with
overlapping packages
which is difficult to solve.

Fabrice

2017-11-23 8:15 GMT+01:00 Fabrice Popineau <
fabrice.popineau-LuT7N8upsGq9tw52UnRK6UZa+K1vlBrA@public.gmane.org>:

>
>
> 2017-11-23 0:06 GMT+01:00 Phillip Lord <phillip.lord-WS8JpuUeUJXe9xe1eoZjHA@public.gmane.org>:
>
>> Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau-LuT7N8upsGq9tw52UnRK6UZa+K1vlBrA@public.gmane.org> writes:
>>
>> > 2017-11-20 18:31 GMT+01:00 Eli Zaretskii <eliz-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org>:
>> >> But in general, your point is valid: various optional libraries need
>> >> support
>> >> files to work properly.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Given the numerous dependencies, and as long as msys2/mingw64 is
>> > concerned, it is so much easier to install msys2 and then request
>> > emacs from pacman than to package a standalone emacs. Lots of elisp
>> > packages may require other mingw64 packages : a spell checker, git,
>> > etc.  It is easy to install them with pacman. The user will have a
>> > much harder time with a standalone emacs. If you want a full emacs
>> > experience, you need a full unix-like environment.
>>
>>
>> The new "with-deps" build and installer of Emacs actually packages quite
>> a bit of msys2/mingw64 including, for example, a python
>> installation.
>>
>
> This is precisely the kind of drifting I hate.
> When on Windows I don't want to use the msys2 python because it doesn't
> play so well.
> I vastly prefer Anaconda (On GNU/Linux too btw)
> If you start to package Python with emacs, you'll end up packaging the
> whole MSys2.
> At least that should be made optional.
>
> One nasty thing about DLLs. Anaconda ships with libpng.dll and others
> which are
> dynamically loaded by emacs. Reason why in my own copy of Emacs, I have
> restricted
> the path where dlls are looked for to the emacs binary directory.
>
> Fabrice
>



-- 
Fabrice Popineau
-----------------------------
CentraleSupelec
Département Informatique
3, rue Joliot Curie
91192 Gif/Yvette Cedex
Tel direct : +33 (0) 169851950
Standard : +33 (0) 169851212
------------------------------

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Re: [Msys2-users] About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Phillip Lord]

It's not a worry. Am happy to get feedback and you've been trying these
things out. Getting windows binary testers can be a limiting factor
here.

Phil

Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau@centralesupelec.fr> writes:

> And sorry if my answer seems rude because I know you did an amazing job
> for packaging this stuff.  But there always will be a problem with
> overlapping packages
> which is difficult to solve.
>
> Fabrice
>
> 2017-11-23 8:15 GMT+01:00 Fabrice Popineau <
> fabrice.popineau@centralesupelec.fr>:
>
>>
>>
>> 2017-11-23 0:06 GMT+01:00 Phillip Lord <phillip.lord@russet.org.uk>:
>>
>>> Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau@centralesupelec.fr> writes:
>>>
>>> > 2017-11-20 18:31 GMT+01:00 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>:
>>> >> But in general, your point is valid: various optional libraries need
>>> >> support
>>> >> files to work properly.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > Given the numerous dependencies, and as long as msys2/mingw64 is
>>> > concerned, it is so much easier to install msys2 and then request
>>> > emacs from pacman than to package a standalone emacs. Lots of elisp
>>> > packages may require other mingw64 packages : a spell checker, git,
>>> > etc.  It is easy to install them with pacman. The user will have a
>>> > much harder time with a standalone emacs. If you want a full emacs
>>> > experience, you need a full unix-like environment.
>>>
>>>
>>> The new "with-deps" build and installer of Emacs actually packages quite
>>> a bit of msys2/mingw64 including, for example, a python
>>> installation.
>>>
>>
>> This is precisely the kind of drifting I hate.
>> When on Windows I don't want to use the msys2 python because it doesn't
>> play so well.
>> I vastly prefer Anaconda (On GNU/Linux too btw)
>> If you start to package Python with emacs, you'll end up packaging the
>> whole MSys2.
>> At least that should be made optional.
>>
>> One nasty thing about DLLs. Anaconda ships with libpng.dll and others
>> which are
>> dynamically loaded by emacs. Reason why in my own copy of Emacs, I have
>> restricted
>> the path where dlls are looked for to the emacs binary directory.
>>
>> Fabrice
>>

Re: [Msys2-users] About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Phillip Lord]

Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau@centralesupelec.fr> writes:

> 2017-11-23 0:06 GMT+01:00 Phillip Lord <phillip.lord@russet.org.uk>:
>
>> Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau@centralesupelec.fr> writes:
>>
>> > 2017-11-20 18:31 GMT+01:00 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>:
>> >> But in general, your point is valid: various optional libraries need
>> >> support
>> >> files to work properly.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Given the numerous dependencies, and as long as msys2/mingw64 is
>> > concerned, it is so much easier to install msys2 and then request
>> > emacs from pacman than to package a standalone emacs. Lots of elisp
>> > packages may require other mingw64 packages : a spell checker, git,
>> > etc.  It is easy to install them with pacman. The user will have a
>> > much harder time with a standalone emacs. If you want a full emacs
>> > experience, you need a full unix-like environment.
>>
>>
>> The new "with-deps" build and installer of Emacs actually packages quite
>> a bit of msys2/mingw64 including, for example, a python
>> installation.
>>
>
> This is precisely the kind of drifting I hate.  When on Windows I
> don't want to use the msys2 python because it doesn't play so well.  I
> vastly prefer Anaconda (On GNU/Linux too btw) If you start to package
> Python with emacs, you'll end up packaging the whole MSys2.  At least
> that should be made optional.

Yes. Use the "-no-deps" zip file.


> One nasty thing about DLLs. Anaconda ships with libpng.dll and others
> which are dynamically loaded by emacs. Reason why in my own copy of
> Emacs, I have restricted the path where dlls are looked for to the
> emacs binary directory.

Is that not the default?

Re: [Msys2-users] About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > The new "with-deps" build and installer of Emacs actually packages quite
  > a bit of msys2/mingw64 including, for example, a python
  > installation.

Does this new packaging include any GPL-covered binaries that are not
from Emacs itself?  Would someone please check this carefully?

If it does, the GPL (whichever version) requires distributing that source code
as well.
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.

Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org>
> CC: fabrice.popineau-LuT7N8upsGq9tw52UnRK6UZa+K1vlBrA@public.gmane.org, ofv-39ZsbGIQGT7e5aOfsHch1g@public.gmane.org, eliz-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org,
> 	msys2-users-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org, emacs-devel-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org
> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 09:02:15 -0500
> 
> Does this new packaging include any GPL-covered binaries that are not
> from Emacs itself?

It does.

> If it does, the GPL (whichever version) requires distributing that source code
> as well.

We do that, of course.

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Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > If it does, the GPL (whichever version) requires distributing that source code
  > > as well.

  > We do that, of course.

I'm glad people remembered to do this.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See https://stallman.org/skype.html.


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Re: [Msys2-users] About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Phillip Lord]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > The new "with-deps" build and installer of Emacs actually packages quite
>   > a bit of msys2/mingw64 including, for example, a python
>   > installation.
>
> Does this new packaging include any GPL-covered binaries that are not
> from Emacs itself?  Would someone please check this carefully?

Almost certainly yes.

> If it does, the GPL (whichever version) requires distributing that source code
> as well.

https://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/pretest/windows/emacs-26.0.90-deps-mingw-w64-src.zip.sig

Which is the source for the dependency packages from msys.

This was the reason I distributed Emacs and its dependencies separately
for Emacs-25. I didn't work out how to get the source for the
dependencies till after the Emacs-25 cycle had started, so could not
distribute the dependencies in the first instance.

Phil

Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 13:53:16 +0100 (CET)
> From: Angelo Graziosi <angelo.g0-VGgt2q2+T+FeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
> 
> Just out of curiosity, given the Emacs executable, is there a way to know the MSYS2/MinGW64 DLLs it needs? On MSYS2 I tried:
> 
> ldd Emacs/bin/emacs-27.0.50.exe
> ntdll.dll => /c/WINDOWS/SYSTEM32/ntdll.dll (0x7ffab5f30000)
> KERNEL32.DLL => /c/WINDOWS/System32/KERNEL32.DLL (0x7ffab49b0000)
> [...]
> WINMMBASE.dll => /c/WINDOWS/SYSTEM32/WINMMBASE.dll (0x7ffab0620000)
> IPHLPAPI.DLL => /c/WINDOWS/SYSTEM32/IPHLPAPI.DLL (0x7ffab18a0000)
> bcrypt.dll => /c/WINDOWS/SYSTEM32/bcrypt.dll (0x7ffab1de0000)
> 
> but it prints only Windows DLLs not all the others which come from MSYS2/MinGW64...

Like this:

  objdump -x emacs.exe | fgrep "DLL Name:"

However, if you are looking for the optional image libraries, libxml2,
etc., you won't find them this way: Emacs loads them dynamically at
run time by using explicit LoadLibrary calls.  Maybe something like
this:

  stringgs emacs.exe | fgrep -i ".dll"

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Re: About DLLs needed by Emacs (W64)

[Angelo Graziosi via Msys2-users]

> Il 20 novembre 2017 alle 16.52 Eli Zaretskii ha scritto:
> 
> Like this:
> 
>   objdump -x emacs.exe | fgrep "DLL Name:"
> 
> However, if you are looking for the optional image libraries, libxml2,
> etc., you won't find them this way: Emacs loads them dynamically at
> run time by using explicit LoadLibrary calls.  Maybe something like
> this:
> 
>   strings emacs.exe | fgrep -i ".dll"

It seems the question I flagged is not solvable as one would expect, in any case thanks for all your clarifications.

Ciao,
  Angelo.

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