From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 13:56:27 +0300 Message-ID: <83pnxfhvvo.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87d0tihxzw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180913174640.GB4019@ACM> <8736udkuit.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180914104833.GA4103@ACM> <83k1nojgia.fsf@gnu.org> <7bed1f76-5bae-44cb-9b22-206b513043be@default> <83d0tfkj77.fsf@gnu.org> <1c393214-c186-4760-9a37-e0450c946446@default> <83zhwji4hx.fsf@gnu.org> <20180915102016.GA15443@ACM> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1537008961 8003 195.159.176.226 (15 Sep 2018 10:56:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 10:56:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: hw@adminart.net, spacibba@aol.com, joostkremers@fastmail.fm, npostavs@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, yurivkhan@gmail.com, drew.adams@oracle.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 15 12:55:56 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g18F2-0001ug-KY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 12:55:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55052 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g18H8-0003Ww-Py for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:58:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39530) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g18Gt-0003Ve-SR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:57:52 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g18Gl-0006aU-1B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:57:46 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:40130) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g18Fg-000553-6G; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:56:36 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3286 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1g18Ff-00043Z-Pp; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:56:36 -0400 In-reply-to: <20180915102016.GA15443@ACM> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Sat, 15 Sep 2018 10:20:16 +0000) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229810 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 10:20:16 +0000 > Cc: Drew Adams , yurivkhan@gmail.com, hw@adminart.net, > spacibba@aol.com, joostkremers@fastmail.fm, npostavs@gmail.com, > emacs-devel@gnu.org, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk > From: Alan Mackenzie > > I can't help feeling that this isn't the right approach. I feel that it > will increase complexity which the new features won't justify. I know > I'm speaking as an "extremist" (i.e. no transient-mark-mode at all) here, > but still: I think having to press a key sequence before d-s-m would work > would take the purpose of d-s-m away - that key sequence might as well be > C-w. People who want delete-selection-mode enabled by default won't need to type that additional key, because for them the region will already have the correct state. delete-selection-mode will take care of that. It is those who do NO want delete-selection-mode turned on by default, people like you and me, who will be ABLE to use delete-selection-mode by typing an extra key. Those users will also be capable of "activating" and "deactivating" the region like transient-mark-mode does with a single command, thus allowing them to invoke commands that act on an "active" region without turning on transient-mark-mode globally. > You seem to be proposing to associate a three-value state with the > region, which state users could change with key sequences. I can see > this being more confusing than the current two-value state (or is it > 2.5?) we currently have. It cannot be more confusing, because for those who already turn on transient-mark-mode and/or delete-selection-mode it leaves the matters exactly like they are. It actually should _improve_ on that by letting those users temporarily turn on/off those modes for the purposes of processing a given region by one or more commands. > It might well be that, having introduced transient-mark-mode as a > default, a certain degree of confusion in Emacs is unavoidable. If so, > does it make sense to spend a lot of effort which might merely switch the > confusion to somewhere else? Assuming that we'd want to have options to > retain all the "old" behaviour, I think it would be difficult to avoid > increasing the confusion. I hope you will now reconsider this remark. > I've interacted somewhat with hw, who's been driving this thread, and > come to the conclusion that he doesn't really want to use Emacs. That's irrelevant for the purposes of my proposal. I do want to use Emacs, and so I hope do you.